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Electric cars controlled from diesel
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Author:  Les Beckman [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Electric cars controlled from diesel
Earlier this year, METRA (the Regional Transportation Authority) donated 4 ex-Illinois Central Highliner bi-level Chicago-area commuter cars to our museum. There are a number of problems we have in the future utilization of these cars, the main one being that we have no overhead at the museum, and are not likely to install any in the future. I recalll reading in an old issue of the STEAM PASSENGER DIRECTORY that the Michigan Transit Museum in Mt. Clemens, Michigan ran a couple of CTA elevated cars in conjunction with one of their diesels, with the train being operated in one direction from the diesel locomotive, and in the other direction from the "L" cars with the diesel providing electricity. I also seem to recall other places where this was done, all where there was no catenary for the electric equipment to operate from. I am wondering how this is done, and if there are any problems in doing it? Any information is greatly appreciated.

Shown here is a photo of one of the METRA cars being moved onto a display track by one of our diesel locomotives.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

Attachments:
Highliner 1529 moving to display track 9-08.jpg
Highliner 1529 moving to display track 9-08.jpg [ 41.97 KiB | Viewed 6445 times ]
Author:  HOD Bill [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Les,
I don't have the answer your question, but I'll bet those cars will hold a lot more than the cabooses do!
Bill
Author:  Bob Davis [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Back in the "bad old days", Orange Empire ran its trolleys from overhead wire energized by a Cummins-GE 150 kW generator. It was OK for old LA streetcars, but really "lugged down" when we ran a PCC or a Pacific Electric interurban. There are at least two locations today where a streetcar is powered by a genset mounted on a small flatcar (the kind usually found with Fairmont motor cars), but your ex-IC cars probably draw 8 to 12 times as much "juice" as a relatively small streetcar. They also have more sophisticated control systems* than a typical vintage trolley, which may not tolerate voltage drops. Also, they were designed for 1500 volts DC, rather than the 600 VDC that streetcars and Chicago "L" cars use. I'll be waiting to see what people more familiar with the IC cars have to say.

*In 1971 I was riding one of the original IC electrics (1926 model) and chatting with the motorman. He found out that I worked in electronics and said "We could use you in our shop when the new cars arrive. They have solid-state control systems; with these old clunkers (like we were riding), if they won't run you just poke around in the switch group with a flag stick until whatever was stuck drops loose, and go on your way. With the new cars, if you tried that you'd probably get a big shower of sparks and find you've fried a $3000 module."
Author:  JohnCloos [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Ten years ago, I had the dubious pleasure of operating a Chicago North Shore Line interurban car with a diesel locomotive. Not in any type of control capacity however.

The substation at the Fox River Trolley Museum in South Elgin gave way one morning to age (luckily on the next-to-last operating weekend of the season) and as a result we found ourselves as an electric operating museum, with no electricity !

We were forced to operate the trains pulling the North Shore car south, and then pushing it north for the return trips. Installation of a new power delivery source took longer than hoped for over the winter and following spring, and I and a partner operated almost all of that following years' museum operations in this manner. Really fun to find out you're in the very small handful of guys that can operate, until you realize that the museum needs you almost every single weekend ! Quite a memorable summer indeed.

Our locomotive was #73, ex-Warren and Saline River, a 70 ton Whitcomb switcher.
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
I volunteered at the Michigan Transit Museum in the 1980s. I can describe how they did it. Going one direction, Alco S1 #1807 pulled the train in normal fashion. Going the other direction, we threw a switch added by our own electricians and revved the engine to roughly notch 6. (Alco S1; no notches.) Some 4/0 copper cable carried the 600V (probably somewhat less) forward to the two El cars which operated as if under wire, though a bit anemic. The S1 knew how to control RPM; one could hear the diesel engine loading up as they took points.

Now, you've got a bit of a problem doing that with a Highliner; for one thing they are 1500V and diesels are nominally 600. On older cars, you can often rewire a 1500V car for 750V, don't know if it's possible with these.

Congrats on your acquisition! I have fond memories of those cars. When I was very young, my dad took me to the Consumer Electronics Show (at McCormick Place), and I begged to stay longer and ride back with coworkers. He said "OK, if we find a motel along the Metra Electric." It worked out wonderfully, and that is perhaps where my appreciation for rail transit began.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
robertmacdowell wrote:
I volunteered at the Michigan Transit Museum in the 1980s. I can describe how they did it. Going one direction, Alco S1 #1807 pulled the train in normal fashion. Going the other direction, we threw a switch added by our own electricians and revved the engine to roughly notch 6. (Alco S1; no notches.) Some 4/0 copper cable carried the 600V (probably somewhat less) forward to the two El cars which operated as if under wire, though a bit anemic. The S1 knew how to control RPM; one could hear the diesel engine loading up as they took points.

Now, you've got a bit of a problem doing that with a Highliner; for one thing they are 1500V and diesels are nominally 600. On older cars, you can often rewire a 1500V car for 750V, don't know if it's possible with these.

Congrats on your acquisition! I have fond memories of those cars. When I was very young, my dad took me to the Consumer Electronics Show (at McCormick Place), and I begged to stay longer and ride back with coworkers. He said "OK, if we find a motel along the Metra Electric." It worked out wonderfully, and that is perhaps where my appreciation for rail transit began.


Robert -

Thanks very much for your insight on how the Michigan Transit Museum operated the "L" cars from their diesel. I don't know if something like this is possible with the Highliners or not. I do know however, that we sure would like to utilize the cars if at all possible.

I am glad you have good memories of those cars. I commuted on the old IC electric (later METRA) and rode the Highliners many times. I had nothing to do with their donation however, and was very surprised to hear that we got them. One interesting fact is that of the four cars, we have the very first one to arrive on Illinois Central property; the 1502. For some reason, St. Louis Car Company (the builder) got the 1502 finished before the 1501 and that car was put through a number of tests by the railroad as a single car before the 1501 finally arrived on the property thus making a matched set.

Les
Author:  Dougvv [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Southern Railway and Norfolk Southern used ex-B units for powering passenger cars while the locomotives were away.
Could a B unit shell have a gen set for 1500VDC added?
Thanks.
Doug vV
Author:  jgallaway81 [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Just an idle thought:

I don't know the capabilities of either the cars or the diesel, if there is MU control throughout, couldn't you just use the controls in an end car to operate the diesel MU style?

That's how Amtrak and many commuter ops run push-pull these days.
Author:  PJS [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Quote:
I don't know the capabilities of either the cars or the diesel, if there is MU control throughout, couldn't you just use the controls in an end car to operate the diesel MU style?

That's how Amtrak and many commuter ops run push-pull these days.
Just an idle thought:


There is certainly a way to use existing trainlines to control the diesel from an MU cab, but you will need to build a converter box to translate the commands from whatever scheme the MU car uses ( P-wire perhaps?) to what the diesel expects, assusming the diesel unit is equipped for MU.

However the braking scheme may not be compatible. I don't know if the MU cab is set up for conventional railroad airbrakes, so would have a conventional brake stand. Many, modern EMU's use some form of electro-pneumatic brake system.

I would think the biggest problem is getting lights and air conditioning to work on the cars. With those sealed windows, A/C will be essential for passenger comfort. EMU's do not have the trainlines for HEP, since each car (or married-pair) gets electricity from the overhead wire. The easiest way is to get 1500v DC to the car. Unfortunately I think getting 1500v. out of the diesel locmotive generator is not going to be straight forward.
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Hmm. My intuition is that these cars' brakes will be compatible "enough"... but I'm just guessing.

I haven't ever tried adapting incompatible MU systems to each other, but it seems like a well designed stack of relays should do the job, and the hardest thing will be making voltages compatible. Safety first and you don't need all 8 notches! At Michigan Transit Museum we kept a man in the diesel cab at all times.

The auxiliary loads will be a challenge, true. (Not to mention maintaining a modern HVAC system.) WRM has a slightly different problem; our equipment was built for temperate San Francisco, Berkeley and Oakland - yet we run it in the hot, dry Central Valley. For our sealed units (Bridge Units and LRV), our trick in the summer is to load passengers and start the trip from inside the carbarn! Then we open and gate the end doors. Then we promptly put the car back in the carbarn to cool off.

Though - my feeling is that the cars should be powered up. There's nothing like the light in the eyes of visitors walking through the carbarn, seeing stone-dead Peter Witt after stone-dead Niles car and stone-dead PCC, and then they come upon a Boeing LRV, lit up, fans blowing, inverters moaning their sad dirge they sing. So yeah, if they're going to ride them, they should hear the fans, see the fluorescent lights, etc.

Fortunately, power electronics has changed radically in the last 15 years. So DC-DC conversion possibilities exist that may not be part of your thinking. Again it's good to be in touch with the hobbyists who convert gas cars to electric vehicles. We're starting to see affordable 3-phase AC motor controllers, and at that point you can just change voltages with a transformer!

At least, you'd want to see about having battery chargers work - for one, to keep them healthy, and second so controls work. What kind of batteries do they use?
Author:  Les Beckman [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
robertmacdowell wrote:
At least, you'd want to see about having battery chargers work - for one, to keep them healthy, and second so controls work. What kind of batteries do they use?


Robert -

Not sure what kind of batteries they use. I'll see if I can find out this weekend when I'm at the museum.

Les
Author:  Les Beckman [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Les Beckman wrote:
robertmacdowell wrote:
At least, you'd want to see about having battery chargers work - for one, to keep them healthy, and second so controls work. What kind of batteries do they use?


Robert -

Not sure what kind of batteries they use. I'll see if I can find out this weekend when I'm at the museum.

Les


Robert -

I checked the 4 Highliners at the museum on Saturday and was shocked to find out tht the batteries were missing from all 4 cars. Then I checked further and found out that they had been in the cars when we received them, but were removed and taken into our Shop building for safekeeping. Each car has two 32 volt batteries, for a total of 64 volts. I did not get down to the Shop to actually look at the batteries, but have been told they appear to be in good condition.

Les
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Electric cars controlled from diesel
Les Beckman wrote:
I checked the 4 Highliners at the museum on Saturday and was shocked to find out tht the batteries were missing from all 4 cars. Then I checked further and found out that they had been in the cars when we received them, but were removed and taken into our Shop building for safekeeping. Each car has two 32 volt batteries, for a total of 64 volts. I did not get down to the Shop to actually look at the batteries, but have been told they appear to be in good condition.


That sounds like mostly good news. These are most likely your standard lead-acid locomotive starting battery, typically set up in 2 banks of 32 volts each, 16 cells per bank. Often a bank is made of four 8-bolt batteries. What's more, diesel locomotive MU signals are "64 volts" (realistically an alternator float of 74V) so most likely they will be voltage-compatible. That simplifies things.

The bad news is they're lead-acid batteries, which means they will deteriorate and fail periodically. Granted, it's not like you have to crank over a locomotive engine with them, so depending on how you feed auxiliary power to the car, you may find they are servicable so long as they can do a reasonable imitation of a capacitor :) You may also be able to replace them with smaller/cheaper batteries, such as 8-volt batteries meant for golf carts. Much easier to install/remove, those!
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