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High gloss paint for pax cars
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26901		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Jim Lundquist [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  High gloss paint for pax cars
OK - what specific product has been used recently for that high gloss, many years of service, painted Pullman Green on passenger cars? Sandblast? Primer? Application?

Many thanks.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
You want an epoxy / hardener paint of an automotive grade, such as Imron, Ditzler, etc. I've had it last applied over previously painted surfaces if the substrate is well adhered, and properly prepared. Depending on the product line chosen, there will be a manufacturers recommended line of products such as prep solvents, self-etching primers, thinners, etc. A two part system such as a flat base coat with a glossy clear cover coat is another possibility - since if the cover coat dulls, it can be prepped and recoated without changing the pigmented paint layers below.

dave
Author:  Jim Lundquist [ Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Anyone with specifics as to paint type, manufactor, application, etc?
Author:  artschwartz [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Try Justin Skrbin at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum - 724-228-9256. Try on Monday, Wednesday, or Friday. He has done two complete cars, plus other smaller jobs, with Imron.
Author:  jamesk [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
I have not painted any passenger cars, but have done a few diesel locos. I have been very happy with dupont centari. For primer, if the prep is down to bare steel, i use variprime. The cost today is really expensive, but worth it.
Author:  Dave [ Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Jim - local conditions matter. What I'm using in the humid wet southeast might not work best in the dry sunny desert. My guess is UV matters more to you than shedding water. Rather than making a national plea for specific product war stories, might want to contact industrial painting outfits in your area to see what products have proven themselves over time in your climactic conditions.

dave
Author:  NH0401 [ Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Jim,

FYI, IMRON and other transportation paint systems formulated for application in CA are different formulations compared to those sold in other states. This would be on account of severe restrictions on VOC emissions peculiar to your state.

The only 'correct' way to apply IMRON is within a retention paint both-with the painter(s) equipped with supplied air respirators. IMRON is about as toxic a man-made substance as there exists, in addition to being extremely expensive.

If you choose to go in the direction of an automotive paint system, you should contact the local Dupont ( or equivalent) distributor for specifics on preparation, compatible materials and application.

My choice would be a suitable architectural paint system, which is formulated to be applied outside. You might wish to check out the Rustoleum line.

Dave
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
I'd say it really depends on the quality of your prep.

I'm a big fan of Awlgrip, a 2-part polyurethane, which is intended for marine use. We've used it at WRM on several pieces. There seem to be several formulations of Imron (and Centari) - some of which are not two-part polyurethanes. Awlgrip is designed to be either sprayed or to produce a good finish if roller/brushed (they have an alternate converter and reducer for brush). The beauty of roller/brush is that most of the AQMD/safety concerns go away. Now let me deep dive into those:

California rules can be a major hassle, but this varies - you have to check with your local/regional AQMD (Air Quality Management District) to see what your rules are. They are principally concerned with a) VOC ("Volatile organic compounds" i.e. solvents), to improve regional smog; and b) overspray, to protect local neighborhoods from what I'll mention under safety. Here's a list of some AQMD's in California: http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/vis ... t/voc.html
and I believe the one covering SoCal is http://www.aqmd.gov/

Paint marketed for automobiles is targeted more harshly than other industrial paints, because it's used so vastly, and paint shops often abut residential neighborhoods.

About 8 years ago I went to paint my car, and so I called up the BAAQMD. Turns out they had a half-day class (under $50) for automotive painters, so I took it. Among their requirements to spray:
    Low VOC paint
    HVLP spray guns, more efficient, so less paint used and thus less VOC
    Exit filtration on your paint spray booth, to catch paint particles in overspray
    Breathing air supply to the man spraying (for safety, not AQMD)

Safety speech. Do you know anyone living with AIDS or otherwise immunocompromised? It feels like fighting off the flu 24x7, mountains of pills, hours of preparing for the day, sensitive to illness. That will be you, if you do not respect these modern paints. Heavy metals and isocyanates in overspray aren't stopped by a dust mask, but aren't a problem if you roller/brush. Getting paint on your skin is always a problem. Many of these chemicals are biocumulative, meaning repeated exposure stacks up over the years. You don't want a situation where your best painter kinda doesn't come in much anymore because he's "too tired".

Now here's how to roller/brush it... http://continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/008796.html
Author:  NH0401 [ Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Presented for your viewing pleasure is a locomotive (RMNE owned ex-NH RS-529) painted with Dupont Centari (using the hardener package) way way back in 1991.

A good deal of the locos' surface area was taken down to bare metal using mechanical methods-which would be sandblasting and/or needle scaling. Paint was applied with a HVLP setup. Truly a first class job...

I note that this loco actually looks far better in reality than what is depicted within the photo. Gloss retention is excellent (in both the black and orange portions) and there is no sign of chalking or color shift in the orange.

DPK
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Author:  Howard P. [ Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
The project to properly repaint and prepare NH 529 for operation started at the beginning of the 1993 restoration season, at RMNE's outdoor Saybrook Yard. The mechanical work and some body prep took place during 1993, and by the end of the 1994 season, the body was about ready for painting. Every door and hatch that could be removed was taken into a boxcar "sandblast booth" and taken down to bare metal, then primed. The non-removable parts (cab, both hoods, tanks, frame, end plates, steps, etc) were needle-scaled and disc sanded to bare, and then primed.

By late fall 1994, the loco was ready for final paint and was primed with DuPont 2600-series primer-sealer inside the VRR's Essex enginehouse (529's topcoating was the last RMNE project done inside that building). Then the final topcoats of red-orange and black Centari were applied by RMNE personnel. The painter (ZOG) and his helper (HP) each had air-supplied hoods, full Tyvek coveralls (with feet and hoods), gloves, etc. The air compressor for the hoods was placed outside the building....

529 was completed at Saybrook in the 1995 season (new radiators and rebuilt shutters, water and oil piping, etc), and moved to NAUG in Sept. 1996, where it has operated every year since. It has lived outside almost all the time since then, and still looks very good.

529 gets washed about once per season, sometimes 2-3 times per season, and its been waxed/buffed maybe 3-4 times in the 14 years since being painted. Annually would be better for that task.

Lesson here? Do the very best surface prep job you possibly can, use the best materials you can afford (and that you can safely/properly use), and try to keep the things under a roof!!!

Howard P.
Zahn Cup, CT
Author:  jamesk [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Sorry its a reply to an old thread, but I forgot I had this info from the L&N Diner we had painted at the WSOR paint shop a while back:

"The paint that we used on this car was the DuPont Imron and the primer
#62-1060 ANIS GRAY, YELLOW # 784744-42P, GREEN # 784745-42P and the
CLEAR COAT #611P. You can purchase these products from Kelly Ind.
800-652-8918."

http://www.irm.org/gallery/LN2726painted

Thanks,
Jamie
Author:  NH0401 [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
WSOR has a suitable paint booth as well as personnel trained in the application of the IMRON paint system.

For many museum operations, the cost of this material as well the associated hazards involved in application makes this choice a non-starter.

DPK
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
NH0401 wrote:
WSOR has a suitable paint booth as well as personnel trained in the application of the IMRON paint system.

For many museum operations, the cost of this material as well the associated hazards involved in application makes this choice a non-starter.


Most of the hazards go away if you brush the stuff instead of spray it.

As far as the cost, you have to work that out yourself based on the value of the underlying restoration work (prep).
Author:  Randy Gustafson [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
We put out a bid spec for repainting the 14 Texas State Railroad passenger cars with in-house forces, including the 'gold standard' for gloss retention and fade resistance, which is Dupont Imron. I'd discovered that NASA made a very scientific analysis of paint fade and gloss retention a few years back, and that reputation has been quantified. I've also personally inspected the job DuPont did (themselves) on painting the ATSF 4-8-4 in Ft. Madison, and the ATSF caboose - that's when they do the job and they monitor it for quality, and it's rather incredible how it has held up. It's made me an Imron fan.

Even given those specific standards, an existing Texas industrial coatings company submitted a bid, and while certainly skeptical, we held them to their word, test results, and warranty. Their product requires clearcoat for UV protection, their primer, etc. to hold those measured long-term results equivalent to Imron. They held to their word and sent a field team to the railroad prior to painting to make SURE the surface prep, application conditions, etc. were being done to their complete satisfaction. They really want to get a new market with rail applications. And, on top of everything else, a DBE, and very favorable cost, even with the required UV coating.

It's probably too soon to tell, but initial application reports, etc. sure came out very well on the first car. I'll discuss the vendor offline, PM me, because I'm not endorsing this stuff (yet) but it certainly bears watching. So far so good.
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High gloss paint for pax cars
Could you post the "gold standard" request-for-bid spec?
Thanks! - Doug Debs
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