Recent Trains magazine articles (Dan Ranger’s most recent op-ed piece, Strasburg RR article) note an increasing demand for first-class service on museum and tourist railroads. Part of this experience is an elegant bar car serving adult beverages. The railroads historically made more profit on the bar car than any other aspect of passenger service.

GGRM's “Art Deco” lounge car SP 2979, http://www.ggrm.org/2979TOL.htm will be officially dedicated in late March on the Niles Canyon Railway http://www.ncry.org. Mahogany-interior heavyweight diner SP 10040 http://www.ncry.org/roster/passgr.shtml will follow later in 2009. Our typical roundtrip lasts 1-1/4 hours.

There are several ways to handle alcoholic drink sales, for example:

• Wilmington & Western RR has a parlor car available for private-party charters, using their preferred caterer. http://www.wwrr.com/charters/parlorcar.asp
(This avoids all the issues of the RR selling booze directly to the general public.)

• For-profit tourist RRs often have more elaborate arrangements. http://www.verdecanyonrr.com/rates.htm Verde Canyon RR (a 4+ hour round trip) offers:
 Coach passengers can purchase beer & wine
 1st-class passengers receive one complementary glass of champagne or cider when they board, get complimentary appetizers, and can purchase beer, wine, & cocktails enroute.

What do you recommend?

If you’d prefer to reply privately (we will hold the info source confidential unless otherwise instructed), contact me at e-mail: dougdebs2472@yahoo.com, or cell phone: 650-704-1487

- Which other museum and tourist railroads sell wine, beer, and/or cocktails onboard?

- Sell alcoholic drinks only to 1st-class passengers? coach too?

- Type of drinks: Only beer & wine, or cocktails too?

- % of 1st-class passengers who buy alcoholic drinks?

- Bartenders: Professional paid, or volunteer?

- Other lessons learned?

Thanks in advance,
Doug Debs
N.C.Ry. Commissary Dept.

What ever you do, I would suggest that you find out about your State laws regarding liquor/bar sales. Since you're in California, see if you can get information about how operations like Napa Valley and Sierra Sunset (or whatever the name is) have handled liquor sales on their diner trains. Also maybe the private car owners.

I have not studied or been involved with the State laws. There may be considerations for type of organization operating the distribution, how payment is made, frequency of service, extent of service (beer and wine vs. full bar).

Another consideration might be your liability coverage.

Back in the 1970s I know of a private car operation that obtained a California State liquor license in California (it's not around any more). Up to that time no one had been able to obtain a liquor license for on-train sales, the owners of the operation found that the law spoke of "railroads and others." But what was "others" -- turned out to be sleeping car companies (i.e. Pullman). So they changed the purpose of their corporation from very general to saying that their business was operating sleeping cars, etc. Then they got their license. They figured that the Amtrak lounge men may have let the ABC know about their trips for several times they were inspected by reps of the ABC during their trips LA to San Diego.

Doug,

Our museum, (a House, (as you know) not a train) near your site does a murder mystery dinner… we are careful to survey our past customers… our surveys showed that in our area (Northern California) guests, expect wine and beer to be available for a premium event… We have an on site caterer with a alcohol permit, and have them supply wine with the dinner.

I suspect based on research, that in other areas you may find different results, but in urban Northern California, for deluxe service, wine is expected to be at least available if not included.

Separate, are the issues of who is supplying the beverage, and how the liability insurance works… These are complicated by local laws… your insurance, and other organizational issues…

Say Hi to Laura... (his wife)

Randy

If you can sell your train tickets without having to deal with alcohol, you are probably better off. On the other hand, there is a significant market segment that desires bar service.

Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum has operated first class service and now dinner trains without alcohol and so far it has not appeared to be a major issue. However Chattanooga's Bible belt demographics may contribute to different customer expectations.

Twenty years ago I was part owner of a commercial dinner train business in Maryland. We not only offered alcohol, it was full bar and complementary with your dinner ticket. The state had a special class of liquor license for railroads - I think we had the third one with CSX and Amtrak holding the other two. We had paid staff as servers, most with bartending experience. Ours was something of a party train so extra diligence was required to keep things under control. After some incidents, I insisted that our entire staff have the type of alcohol management class that most restaurant employees go through. I think we did the TAM program (http://www.tamusa.org). The biggest problem I saw were groups that got half lit on the bus before they arrived.

My conclusions - while I wouldn't be afraid to offer alcohol, if tickets sell just as well without it, I would remain "dry". I would limit my offering to beer and wine, and only in connection with a meal. Check with your state on licensing requirements and don't overlook the possibility that regulations may provide for special handling of railroads. Think through inventory control issues and on-board cash management. Consider having your serving staff take alcohol awareness training, which if nothing more will please your insurance carrier and give you a line of defense in the event of an incident.

Alan Maples

I will add my personal experience, both working in train service for 20 years and dealing with the addition of Bar service to ones operation.

For the most part, tourist railroads are offering a "FAMILY EXPERIENCE" which is generally geared towards KIDS...and the adults who [they] bring along to pay for everything. While the adults do make up a large portion of the fares, the kids are the primary reason most operations survive. We have seen this industry survive for years on creating and maintaining that experience. That said, I have dealt with some NASTY people who did't have alcohol in them, so I can only imagine if they did, what they'd have been like.

On dinner trains, which are more geared towards adults, I can see offering it. However, just like a corner bar tender can and should be held accountable for giving too many drinks to a customer, so too should the railroad operations. I have seen peolpe litereally FALLING off the train, they were so drunk. When pointed out, managements response was, "they're off our train, it's not our problem." ....I think it is. I personally would not want to see that person driving out of my parking lot.

Offering this same level of service to the regular tourist runs I believe is going to have a bad effect. It will only take one customer having a couple beers during that hour (+/-) trip to then drive their family car into another car, truck or tree, that we'll find a happy lawyer(s) who with WIDE SPREAD PUBLICITY, will sue said operation into the ground for offering too many drinks to their client, particularly within the context of a Family Operation, which will then have a domino effect throughout the industry.

Think about the things this industry has already had to suffer through that many thought would never happen. Never say never and never underestimate the power of one good lawyer. Talk about insurance premiums going up?

I think this trend moving toward Bar cars is going to be a downfall for operations, particularly Non Profits, should they follow.

It should be noted though, that most non profits DO NOT offer this service. Railroads like the Strasburg, NH&I, Conway Scenic and others who offer such on shorter lenght trips, are all for profit, corporations.

Operations like the Grand Canyon, Verde and other 3+ hour trips may be more capable of offering such service, but I would hope to see a cut off time, to allow those who need it, to sober up. Hour or so before end of trip, maybe?

Sorry, I just can't see Mom and Dad having drinks in front of their kids (which I've seen many many times on one local operation), then hopping off the train and into their cars. As an employee or owner of said operation, I'd feel a personal responsibility if something would happen to them, particularly to the kids who are innocent. To profit off the Adults, and potentially harm kids for the sake of money, in THIS industry, is just NOT worth it.

As Alan said, a properly trained staff is what is needed and should be required, but some of these operations are hiring part-timers whith little experience in this area...they just posess "bar tending expereince."

If you don't agree, that's fine...but remember that the next time there is a "MADD" demonstration nearby and you vocally support it, or that class offered at your teen's school on drinking and driving. To disagree is to be hypocritical, at least in this business.

While it could be said that Resturaunts too are in the "Family Business", most do NOT cater to young kids. Last time I checked, TGI Friday's didnt have a Barny Day or Thomas the Tank Engine Day to draw and keep customes coming back.

New Hope & Ivyland has a bar car, but on their 45 minute regular trip you'd have to try very hard to go over the legal limit.

Thanks to folks who posted above, and I'd like to encourage other to comment as well.

Niles Canyon Railway already offers a great family experience on the regular Sunday trains (in my humble opinion). We see the proposed Parlor Car service as attracting additional new passengers who want an upscale elegant experience. Perhaps we officially should limit this to adults-only?

- Doug Debs

Some people don't even need to reach the legal limit.

New Hope & Ivyland offers bar service to all passengers, not just those in the Parlor Car. You see car attendents roaming the cars taking orders and passing out drinks left and right. If not that, they allow people to walk to the bar car to obtain drinks and return to their original seats. Not what I would consider a family atmosphere.

Dinner Trains are one thing, but I just don't think it's a great idea for the Sunday "daisy picker" trips.

I would think a 21 and over car would be the best way to attract those additional customers, without hurting your current base. It limits the comsumption of alcohol exposure to the kids and allows you to maintain the atmosphere NCRY has worked so hard to create.

Hey Doug,
I'm sure you probably know this, but at least two or so years ago, the NCRy was running a handful of wine trains each Spring (I was a brakey on one of them). If I remember correctly, these were operated as a charter by a wine connoisseur's group of sorts, which solved the liquor license dilemma as they handled the service end of the endeavor.

With Wente and all the other fine Livermore Valley wineries nearby -- not to mention Pyramid, Gordon Biersch, Anchor Steam, and countless other microbreweries, why not consider inviting them to serve on board, free of charge? I don't know the logistics that might be involved, but it seems like it could be a win-win situation for both parties. They'd bring the liquor license, servers and make their bucks on booze (and maybe t-shirts and pint glasses), while the host railroad would benefit through the boost in ticket sales provided by the added draw. The Skunk Train has/had some sort of arrangement like this with Lagunitas, but I'm not entirely sure of the details. In any event, it could be one heck of a good marketing move, especially with the Livermore Valley so adamant over redefining itself as the second largest wine producing region in the state.

Just some food for thought...

Observation: all families are not the same, nor are all cultures. I wouldn't suggest to an Italian, for example, that consuming wine in a family venue was in any sense morally questionable. Hopefully, we will get sensible about this sort of thing someday, seems like we are heading in the direction of developing more of a national appreciation. Even here in the wilds of NC, Yadkin Valley vintages are very competitive in quality and cost with anything France or California can provide.

It doesn't have to be an either / or. The average kiddie train ride (which is seldom a real moneymakerm and in fact can be a loss leader for the museum gift shop or Thomas event) is one product. A nice, elegant full service dinner train is another, and one which will solve a lot of those annual problems about anniversary celebrations, etc. I wouldn't want to seat the kiddies in an elegant car with linen tablecloths and crystal stemware for their 30 minute train ride, but I sure would make the dinner train product as romantically evocative as possible, and charge accordingly. Alcohol service is expected as part of a fine dining experience in restaurants - no difference of your restaurant is on wheels.

Somewhere in between is the pizza and beer train - and maybe harder to target and market. Another variation would be to take the train to a location on the line at which an open campfire barbecue or chuck wagon dinner would be served as part of a themed evening of entertainment.

The question is, is alcohol service a part of the product you are offering insofar as audience expectation is concerned. If it is, you better have it. The worst thing you can do is in any way fail to live up to your visitors expectations. Their opinion matters - yours not so much.

dave

On a related ? note, does anyone run an 'adult' event centered around Halloween ?

DPK

Getting back to my original question: Which other museum / tourist RRs sell alcoholic beverages on a 1st-class parlor car or the equivalent?

Thanks! - Doug

Let this professional beer writer chime in for a few. Obviously I have my prejudices, but at the same time I'm also a rail preservationist.

I was lucky enough to be in Arizona a while back when the Verde Canyon RR was running an "Oktoberfest"--they invited passengers to arrive early and partake of oompa-band entertainment and beers and food for sale beforehand, then made most of the beers available for sale on the train as well. As near as I could tell, nobody was getting intoxicated by the booze, what with the intoxication of the scenery. One of the featured beers? Steam Engine Lager from Steamworks in Durango, featuring a D&RGW K-37 on the cans!

One potential way to avoid drunk problems? Sell the drink tickets beforehand at the window, with a limit of four/six/whatever, depending on the length of the ride. Verde Canyon stuck with pre-packaged stuff, the better to keep and sell leftover inventory on future non-Oktoberfest trains.

The British, on the other hand, have managed not only full-fledged beer festivals, but "Real Ale Expresses" on preserved lines. Several even have good beer bars in their station complexes--I think the Severn Valley Ry. had one at each end of the line!--and many have food buffet cars with good beer. The Strathspey Railway, in the heart of whisky-producing country, even has/had a "whisky tasting car," a 1950s slam-door buffet car converted to a lounge with something like 100-150 whiskies and other potables.

Would this work in the States? The biggest problem with the concept is that Puritanical approach that has been beaten into American culture that alcohol is only consumed in excess and is thus evil--thus some people saying "family events" versus alcohol. Attitudes we can do little about, and it's up to the producers and consumers of better "craft" beer to push the image of beer away from that. Having said that, I can see several areas where booze and railroading offer novel marketing opportunities, the prime example for emulation being the Napa Valley Wine Train. The Pacific Northwest--Portland, Yakima, etc.--is prime beer country because of the hop farming industry. My Old Kentucky Bourbon Train?

One other factor to consider: the dirty little secret of the booze industry is that markups are HUGE. At the places I frequent, the markups range from almost zero (the most special, rarest beer, poured as a favor to the select few or as a promotion) to around 100% (typical craft beer) to 150% (Bud/Miller/Coors/etc.) to as much as 900% for certain mixed drinks. A one-off special beer event at a RR/museum may break even for beer but bring a lot of paying customers; a well-managed bar on a regular dinner train could produce ludicrous amounts of income. I would argue more for special beverages--you're on a train, so it's already special; why not drink a special beverage? Huge numbers of Americans, however, use booze as a crutch or comfort aid, and cannot reach beyond "North American Industrial Lagers" in their heads--habits are hard to break.

I had a long talk with a senior insurance agent who has made his fortune writing insurance policies for wineries - primarily wine-tasting operations in California. His office has insured hundreds of wineries for 30+ years. I asked him about the alcohol-related liability problems. He said the problem is invariably "slip, trip, and fall" - nothing to do with serving alcoholic beverages per se. In all those years, they've only had one claim that might have been alcohol-related, but frankly he thought it was just one more "slip trip, & fall". The one change they did have to insist on was to ban mini-bus tour groups from retirement homes, because generally there weren't enough able-bodied people in the tour group to assist the folks who needed assistance walking on unfamiliar territory. His advice was to really watch out for slip, trip, & fall hazards.

- Doug Debs

Doug,
Also you might want to contact the Friends of the 261. I might be wrong but I believe I was told that they serve alcohol in their premium service options on trips. Also you might want to contact the Napa Valley Wine Train people to see what they say.


Good luck with the project!