What are the advantages/disadvantages of operating a narrow vs. standard gauge railway? Has anyone looked into rebuilding an abandonned standard gauge line into a narrow gauge? I would think that the limited available funds groups have to work with would go much further with the smaller engines, lighter track, and slower speeds and still achieve much of the same experience for the public. Would the regulations/operating standards be the same? I'm thinking more along the lines of the U.K./European style 0-4-0/0-6-0 engines rather than the big C & T S and D & S which probably cost as much as some standard gauge engines to run, but any input is appreciated.

Thanks.

jason.whiteley@sympatico.ca

Jason - the 2 foot Cripple Creek and Victor is laid over a somewhat broader guage roadbed. It uses a nice variety of european and US steam, all in the small category, including a very nice tiny 0-4-4-0 mallet.

In general, the lighter the axle load the lighter / cheaper the track. Also, equipment with short rigid wheelbases can negotiate sharper curves for those diversions around tree stumps and mules.

FRA has stated that it considers railroads narrower than 2 feet to be miniature railroads and not within their jurisdiction insofar as I understand it. The european 60 cm gage is about 3/8" narrower than 2 feet. If I were building now I would certainly consider it strongly (South African garrets) to avoid the paperwork problems, but would also want to have standards of safety at least as good as FRA minimum.

Happy construction.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

The Maine Narrow Gauge Railroad Co. & Museum have built a 2 foot gauge line on the former standard gauge tracks of the Grand Trunk Ry. in Portland ME. I believe they actually mover the GT's rails in to 2-foot gauge. Visit them at: http://www.mngrr.org/



The Electric City Trolley Museum Association

The initial investment is less but it is going to cost as much to operate (insurance, taxes, permits, wages, and a hundred other costs that are not dividisable by gauge). One of the most important costs that is usually forgotten is that all the rolling stock will have to be specially constructed, you can't easily buy it off the shelf as you can standard gauge stuff.

Tom


ironbartom@aol.com

I betcha John Birmingham of the Cripple Creek & Victor has made more clear money vs input than any one else in the steam tourist train buisiness.

Back in the early 80's when I was a kid, I road the cab with Mr. Curtis Fox in the little Henschell 0-4-0. Just before they'd pull out, he'd put in maybe a little coal scoop full of coal in, and off he'd go to end of track(two miles). Maybe he'd use one or two more before he backed up to return. He told me that during the summer they gernally grossed about $3500 a day, which ain't bad for a half dozen part time employees working 3-4 months out of the year.

As for construction costs, the absolute cheapest you can get a standard quage spur put in is $70 per foot. We put pencil to paper and figured a light two foot installation would run less than a third of that, using light rail and smaller 5"x6"x72" (new) ties, although smaller could be used.

There is some bunch in Mobile, Alabama that is doing a Welsh style narrow guage. I wonder if they are going to use some of the former Indy 500 engines formerly of Lord Penryn's Slate Quarries?

lorija799@aol.com

You can chainsaw spike killed standard gage ties in half and recycle.

CC&V can go a long way on a little coal. Regarding Tom's very valid point about equipment, two foot engines are being built new in Wales now, and there is some stock of retired cars in Africa and perhaps some more industrial stuff in Eastern Europe. Some American mine equipment comes 2 foot also.

Not sure whether the Kennesaw museum will be able to furnish parts or entire new replica Glover locomotives when it gets together in the next couple years. Wouldn't it be cool.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

As usual, you make a good point, Dave.

A brand new super power NYC Hudson just cannot happen, BUT... it isn't by any means being off in left field to build new Billerca and Bedford Forney. Six Flags over Texas had new boilers made by Holman for their little 12 ton plantation rigs in about 1989 for a little over 20k per unit. Combine affordable boilers with the Glover patterns..........

BTW I hear there is a group in Britain that is building new Hunslet style 8ton 0-4-0 quarry dinks. Price? 40,000lbs sterling (about $60k US, if my exchange guess is right).

lorija799@aol.com

> What are the advantages/disadvantages of
> operating a narrow vs. standard gauge
> railway? Has anyone looked into rebuilding
> an abandonned standard gauge line into a
> narrow gauge?

The Huckleberry RR is a 3' gauge line that was made by moving one rail of an abandoned standard gauge branch(ex-Pere Marquette)over and adding reverse loops at each end. We have just about completed a major track rehab. Every one of the contractors who bid on the job told me they could do the work we needed a LOT cheaper if we were standard gauge. None of their machines fit our track. The first round of bids came in so high we rejected them all and re-bid the job. The contractor that won the bid converted a liner/tamper to 3' gauge temporarily, and was the low bidder by almost 20%. I can also find a lot more used equipment if we were standard gauge.

I have my own ideas on how to run a tourist railroad with a minimal investment. You could make up a nice train with inexpensive used standard gauge equipment far cheaper than 3'.

Martyhuck@aol.com

Mammoth Locomotive Works was making their nice little mogul in 2 foot gauge (as well as 15"), but I think I heard recently they were in a bit of a financial spot. So they may not anymore.

The general economic fallacy of narrow gauge vs. standard gauge makes up a good portion of George Hilton's epic "American Narrow Gauge Railroads", and is equally applicable to excursion operations. Basically, the so-called "economies of scale" do not compute through in the real world.

Years ago, a mechanical engineer who was a hard-core railfan but not working in railroads carefully told me that the first rule of engineering in railroading is: "The tracks are too #*&! narrow!" And he was talking about *standard* gauge. If anyone has the chance to do anything anew, they now recommend a gauge of at least six feet or two meters.

lner4472@bcpl.net

GEE: What you are saying is that the Erie, Ireland, Russia and Brunel were ahead of their times .. ah well we can only dream of a palace car 14ft wide!


lamontdc@adelphia.net

Here is someone doing 2ft welsh narrow guage, and according to the website, are having a new locomotive built by the exmoor steam railway

www.waleswest.com

ps for some reason I just don't think of Wales and an alabama trailerpark together.

lorija799@aol.com

> You can chainsaw spike killed standard gage
> ties in half and recycle.

Dave, I've had nothing but problems with creo ties that have been chainsawed. They tend to rot out down the middle creating a square wooden "tube" that won't hold a spike. We've had to have 6 foot ties specially milled and treated in order to solve that problem at about the same cost as new 8 foot ties.
Tom

ironbartom@aol.com

Spikes? Try duct tape......

Probably has something to do with climate and source. Didn't have that difficulty in CO high and dry.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> GEE: What you are saying is that the Erie,
> Ireland, Russia and Brunel were ahead of
> their times .. ah well we can only dream of
> a palace car 14ft wide!

Just like VHS and Beta, or Apple and Microsoft, the better product isn't always the one that survives. Broad gauge is a superior form of construction than standard in many ways. Railroads like the Erie were ahead of their time, and had the right idea, but a myriad of other factors led to the adoption of standard gauge. Some say the Erie's conversion to standard gauge was one of the reasons the Erie never became a financially strong company.

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