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| water treatment https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2724 |
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| Author: | Rick [ Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | water treatment |
We are thinking of using TERLYN for our water treatment program. Is there anyone who can give me some comments on their experience with this product. Thanks, Rick. enginman@gis.net |
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| Author: | HRMO'Biph [ Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
The Mt Dora Scenic has been using it a little over a year. The flues on the engine they use had to be replaced after only a little over a years' weekends only use. There had been a great deal of oxygenic erosion on the tubes. Some feel that Terlyn may not be suitable for nonwelded boilers. Get a water analysis and do what it says. lorija799@aol.com |
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| Author: | J.Williams [ Fri Feb 22, 2002 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
Amen to proper feedwater analysis. I took the sales pitch hook, line, and sinker for the 1 shot does it all treatment. After 2 or 3 days of running after treatment was started, we pulled into the shop for the annual. Upon internal inspection, we had never seen such shinny flues, that should have tipped us off. Sure did steam good! The Boss always said that a boiler needs a little coating of something. A steam program should treat per the water source, per the chemical stucture, adding only the needed additives. If all water had the same PH and mineral content, my guess is water would taste the same. One shot did it all, 240 flues replaced... jwilliams@carolwood.every1.net |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
> Amen to proper feedwater analysis. If you use city water, ask the water purveyor if they always use the same source of water year round. If the water supply comes from various sources, such as wells, surface water, etc., the chemical make up can change with the source. I have been in and out of the water industry for years. About 30 years ago I was working as a drafter at City of Pasadena Water Department when I heard the following story as it happened. The city water department redeveloped a well that had been out of service for some years. They put it into service to meet the high demands of morning and evening. And only operated it during those time periods. About a mile away was a big Sears store and about a mile from there was a tie-in with the Southern California Metropolitan Water District (Colorado River water). Within a day or two of putting the well in operation a call was received from the plant engineer of the Sears store. "What are you doing to the water?" The chemical make-up and hardness of the water they took into the boilers changed during the day depending on where the water was coming from -- the well during the morning and evening and the MWD at other times. Brian Norden bnorden49@earthlink.net |
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| Author: | J Kruger [ Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
Pacific Locomotive Association uses TERLYN. We love the stuff. No scale build-up in the boiler, the side sheets, flues, and barrel stay free of scale. We used to wash buckets of scale from the boiler every boiler wash. Using the TERLYN we don't have a problem with large amounts of scale. The problem is that if you are running with a boiler which is severely scaled and is almost due for re-tubing, chances are the scale is the bulk of the material of the flues...due for replacement anyway then. I know I sound like an infomercial, but we had great sucess with the stuff. J Kruger > We are thinking of using TERLYN for our > water treatment program. Is there anyone who > can give me some comments on their > experience with this product. Thanks, Rick. johnathon_kruger@hotmail.com |
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| Author: | HRMO'Biph [ Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
We were dealing with brand new flues. They had to be replaced a year and a half later. Terlyn was used. lorija799@aol.com |
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| Author: | Marty Knox (HRR) [ Sat Feb 23, 2002 10:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
> We are thinking of using TERLYN for our > water treatment program. I do not know and cannot get enough information on Terlyn water treatment to have an opinion of it. Their MSDS(Material Safety Data Sheet) doesn't tell you anything. My objection to it is based on the way they are selling it - "one size fits all, send a water sample to us and we'll analyze it and tell you what to do, just pour our product in the tender and it will cure all your problems!" Sounds too much like snake oil to me! I was taught to have the water tested and treat for what you find. We monitor and adjust our water treatment daily. And yes, like Brian Norden pointed out, water supplies vary even during the course of a day. Martyhuck@aol.com |
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| Author: | Bill Bondie, Iron Horse W [ Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | What went wrong at Mt Dora |
As owner of IRON HORSE WATER TREATMENT Inc, I handle the TERLYN LSB Program for over 600 steam locomotives in the world. Some like the Georgetown Loop RR have been on it now for over 8 years. Most all report they can still read the mill-writing on new boiler tubes and have ZERO scale and corrosion problems. When done right, the whole inside of the boiler builds a protective coating that has proven impervious to pitting and oxygen attack. Occasional problems do show up though. Blowing down the boiler too much during operation, is a common practice needing correction. Sometimes, operators have to be shown how to do PROPER and timely washouts. However, repeated attempts to help the summer-weekend-only Mt. Dora RR didn't follow the norm. I'll put some of my observations out here and you "experts" see if you spot how the tubes got eaten: 1) In May of 2001 they called and ordered just enough treatment to do a half dozen steaming weekends. Not enough to cover steaming ops in June, July, August, September and October. 2) A dozen empty pre-addressed return sample bottles were sent to Mt. Dora throughout the summer 2001 asking them to return a boiler water sample to TERLYN for detailed analysis. (For free, TERLYN performs over 20 seperate analyses on the boiler sample looking for possible scale buildup and possible corrosion in the many different materials used throughout steam locomotives.)... None were returned for analyses. 3) Certified letters asking for boiler samples were ignored or came back refused!! 4) Several knowledgable people reported back to me they were most negatively impressed when they visited the operation: a)A firemen repeatedly hitting the top of the air compressor with a hammer to get it to run. b)Dynamo output voltage controlled by the supply valve on the turret. c)Hostlers and firemen repeatedly adding huge slugs of cold water at a spot fire, taking boiler pressure down 20-25 psig at a whack. d)End of weekend shutdown consisted of shutting everything off but the injector and slugging the boiler full of cold oxygenated water until the boiler filled up, then shutting the turret supply valve off and leaving the engine alone for the next 5 days. This was done a couple dozen times through the summer I'm told. Face to face conversations about the folly of such practices yielded no positive change. To date TERLYN and I have YET to get paid for the treatment that they purchased. It is said that tens of thousands of dollars owed by Mt. Dora to various contractors is in default. I know Steven Butler at Cumbres-Toltec is asking where his injector is that they "borrowed". If I had honestly known that this was a leased engine from Reader, I would have fired off letters and phone calls to them ASAP. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I constantly tell customers to stay in contact with myself and TERLYN. I ask for boiler water samples and inspection results. Most do so. There are no dumb questions, except the ones you don't ask. The railroads with the most success, frequently use this free two-way communication avenue. And Marty Knox, quit saying that this LSB Program is a one-size-fits-all attempt. That's assinine. Each individual locomotive starting TERLYN LSB Program is set up ONLY after more than two dozen factors are evaluated, including: Makeup water pH, silica level, hardness factors, and present treatment methods. Does the water quality vary with the season or along each route. Boiler age, condition, construction methods and materials. Projected steaming schedule, maint. and washout practices. Many times, the minor deficiencies found in above conditions are first corrected to current FRA regs. and best established shop practices. Only then is a starting treatment plan initiated. Over the next several steaming & washout cycles, we can use simple TDS testing, visual internal inspections, and boiler water analyses give the necessary feedback on dosage adjustments to give the best results for the least cost. ================================================== The good news is that the new owners of the Orlando and Mount Dora RR, under the leadership of Henry Weller, appear ready to correct these problems. Neil Bagaus, the new general manager reports that they have reflued the 2-6-2, and are fixing the many "mechanical and operating/maint. issues". Numerous discussions have taken place between myself, TERLYN ,and O&MDRR. All parties feel confident that they will not repeat last years mistakes, on this engine, (and another that they are looking at getting), so they too can join the "zero-problems" TERLYN LSB crowd. They will be utilizing IRON HORSE and TERLYN (factory and lab are only an hour away Clearwater, FL.) And as always, IRON HORSE WATER TREATMENT and TERLYN stand committed to working with them to ensure their continued satisfaction. If anyone has ANY questions on using the TERLYN LSB Program on their railroad, please feel free to contact the TERLYN factory directly at 1-800-200-4112 asking for the president, Terry Rushmore. Or you can call IRON HORSE WATER TREATMENT at: cell303-378-2460. V/R Bill Bondie http://www.terlyn billbondie@ironhorsewater.com |
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| Author: | Bill Bondie, Iron Horse W [ Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
Mr. J Williams, contact me we need to talk. V/R Bill Bondie Cell: 303-378-2460 http://www.terlyn billbondie@ironhorsewater.com |
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| Author: | Bill Bondie, Iron Horse W [ Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
Dear HRMO'Biph, Please contact me, we need to talk. V/R Bill Bondie Cell: 303-378-2460 http://www.terlyn billbondie@ironhorsewater.com |
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| Author: | J. David [ Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
> I do not know and cannot get enough > information on Terlyn water treatment to > have an opinion of it. Their MSDS(Material > Safety Data Sheet) doesn't tell you > anything. My objection to it is based on the > way they are selling it - "one size > fits all, send a water sample to us and > we'll analyze it and tell you what to do, > just pour our product in the tender and it > will cure all your problems!" Sounds > too much like snake oil to me! > I was taught to have the water tested and > treat for what you find. We monitor and > adjust our water treatment daily. And yes, > like Brian Norden pointed out, water > supplies vary even during the course of a > day. Dear Marty: I too thought about using this product but changed my my mind for some of the same reasons: is the stuff magic or what? All of the ingrediants are propritary therefor not listed on the MSDS sheet, but what bothered me is the lack of daily tests that I can do myself to see if there is sufficent product in the boiler to do what it is supposed to. I can't see trusting my boilers to a product for which there is no daily test. Perhaps I am old fashioned, but I want to know the water chemistry on a daily basis, especially on days when the boiler is not being used. With our program I can check at any time to make sure that there is enough oxygen scavenger present. The other factor in my decision was cost. In calculating what it would cost me per year verses what I am paying for our current program, there was no way that I would change. It is possible that others would find it cost competitive, but we didn't. J.David jdconrad@snet.net |
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| Author: | Phil Johnson [ Mon Feb 25, 2002 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: water treatment |
> We are thinking of using TERLYN for our > water treatment program. Is there anyone who > can give me some comments on their > experience with this product. Thanks, Rick. The Georgetown Loop has been using the TERLYN boiler water treatment for several years and we have had excellent results. We have a single source water supply with a water softener so we can closely monitor our water conditions. Not every operation has that luxury. We use very little of the TERLYN product daily (12oz.) to prevent corrosion and it performs very well and economically for us with absolutely NO scale on any of the boiler surfaces. We perform a daily TDS test that indicates the concentration of chemical in the boiler water and periodic detailed tests by TERLYN to be sure chemical levels are proper and no corrosion is taking place. Every operation has different conditions and one should choose a water treatment that works for them and that they are comfortable with. The TERLYN system does work for us and I can highly recommend it. Phil Johnson phil@georgetownloop.com |
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