Mr. Hefner, in a post below about Car Ferries, cites the Shaun O'Boyle photos of the "Whitte Scrapyard," and notes he's heard that the place has been cleaned out. Anybody know if this is true?

I noticed when I went back to revist the Modern Ruins site that there are some color photos of the Whitte yard now, which I don't think were there last time. Regardless, are the boats now gone, and anybody have any history on what appreared to be a veritable martine history museum
came into being? I.e., if the boats were condemned, why weren't they cut up immediately rather than languishing around for years? Was there any thought given to preserving them originally?

Awesome Modern Ruins Website
hkading@rypn.org

Hume:

The problem was similar to that which our museum members often talk about; too much, too fast! Many of the railroad fleets were retired at one time, and the other harbor craft were retired at intervals when the companies went out of business. Many of the hulls are/were wooden rather than steel, and recovery of metals is a slower process in that case. I think what basically happens is that a vessel in questionable shape got tied up to await it's turn at the breakers, when the hull springs a slow leak and she goes to the bottom, amongst other old hulls and entanglements. Recovery is slow if at all, and the pile up simply accumulates. I do knw that on several occassions in the past, the South Street Seaport Museum has sent architects out to measure and draw particular hull designs and fittings. If affectionados think it's tough to keep a static locomotive, you need to consider what it's all about when trying to preserve a ship. Even operable ships like the Hudson Day Line's "Alexander Hamilton" went from dock to dock without a saviour, sinking several times, and finally being abandoned in N.Y. Harbor, to rot into the muddy bottom. It has to be heart braking for any serious museum to have to pass on a historic ship simply because there is no place to preserve or keep it. Here in Maine, the steam tug "Seguin" was brought out of the water into a dry building for restoration. It turned out to be the worst imaginable fate, as dry rot raced through the hull and destroyed it in the cradle where is sat. All that was preserved was her internal machinery.

glueck@saturn.caps.maine.edu

Hume,

The information came from the "Tugboats" group on Yahoo.com. There was a discussion about the Whitte Scrapyard a few months ago. Supposively, O'Boyle's photographs were taken in the 1970s or 1980s. An e-mail to him from his website could confirm or deny this.

A found a photograph of the steamer "New Bedford" that was taken in 1988 on the net. It is one of the ships in Whitte's Yard. I already mentioned the arial photograph on Terraserver, taken in the early 1990s. Below is another view from Mapquest; I hope it works.

The individual who wrote me off-line claimed he visited Whitte's yard in 1995, and all but three vessels were gone.

As difficult as it is to preserve steam locomotives, ships must be a nightmare by comparison. My hat is off to Mr. Miles and all of those who do so.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Mr. Hefner, in a post below about Car
> Ferries, cites the Shaun O'Boyle photos of
> the "Whitte Scrapyard," and notes
> he's heard that the place has been cleaned
> out. Anybody know if this is true?

> I noticed when I went back to revist the
> Modern Ruins site that there are some color
> photos of the Whitte yard now, which I don't
> think were there last time. Regardless, are
> the boats now gone, and anybody have any
> history on what appreared to be a veritable
> martine history museum
> came into being? I.e., if the boats were
> condemned, why weren't they cut up
> immediately rather than languishing around
> for years? Was there any thought given to
> preserving them originally?


Mapquest - Witte Scrapyard
james1@pernet.net

Mapquest Directions:

1. Go to www.mapquest.com, link below
2. Under "find a U.S. map", enter the following address:

2453 Arthur Kill Rd.

Staten Island

NY
3. Click on the MAP IT! button
4. You will now see a map. Just below the location, there is a tab marked "AERIAL PHOTO". Click on it.
5. Click on the square labeled "BIG PHOTO" to get a bigger picture, and use the zoom and border buttons to move and zoom.

-James Hefner
Hebrews 10:20a

> Hume,

> The information came from the
> "Tugboats" group on Yahoo.com.
> There was a discussion about the Whitte
> Scrapyard a few months ago. Supposively,
> O'Boyle's photographs were taken in the
> 1970s or 1980s. An e-mail to him from his
> website could confirm or deny this.

> A found a photograph of the steamer
> "New Bedford" that was taken in
> 1988 on the net. It is one of the ships in
> Whitte's Yard. I already mentioned the arial
> photograph on Terraserver, taken in the
> early 1990s. Below is another view from
> Mapquest; I hope it works.

> The individual who wrote me off-line claimed
> he visited Whitte's yard in 1995, and all
> but three vessels were gone.

> As difficult as it is to preserve steam
> locomotives, ships must be a nightmare by
> comparison. My hat is off to Mr. Miles and
> all of those who do so.

> -James Hefner
> Hebrews 10:20a


Mapquest
james1@pernet.net

I went and looked at the Map Quest aerial photo. Like on the Terraserver site, I can never see anything, or find anything, even when I know what and more or less where it is. Example, the Lima Loco Works should still be on the Terraserver images for the image dates shown, the works weren't demolished until 97. Also, numerous roundhouses that are either still there, or were there, or should be there at the time of the image being captured, but I can't ever find anything. Maybe I need better glasses.

Anyway, I wrote O'Boyle an e-mail and asked when the pictures were taken and if he knows if the place has been cleaned out. It's still hard for me to comprehend how such a collection could accumulate. Is this an isolated phenomema or are their dozens of ship graveyards out there in this country, and elsewhere? Not much at Whitte looked like it was worth saving, and I have to think it cost a fortune to remove it all, probably more than was retrieved in salvage value(?). Was it maybe an EPA Superfund site?

Guess I'm a little jealous too. Don't know when I'd ever get to NY, but the thought of renting a boat and touring the place (probably be trespassing I guess) had crossed my mind. Another thing I'm jealous of is Iron Dave's visiting the Glover works and actually retrieving locomotives and parts from the interior before the demolition.

Awesome Modern Ruins Website
hkading@rypn.org

Hume - I looked at the ruins site and WOW! There were a couple classis steam tugs there that I thought needed to live on the Savannah river near me.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Hume - I looked at the ruins site and WOW!
> There were a couple classis steam tugs there
> that I thought needed to live on the
> Savannah river near me.

Well, I e-mailed Shaun O'Boyle and he gave a prompt reponse. The yard has been cleaned out. It is still an active marine scrap yard, but the new boats are of a much more recent vintage.

For those of you who can't get enough photos of that place (like me) there are 73 pages(!) of additional photos taken in the same timeframe, 1987-88, at the link below. You have to log in, but can do so annonymously as a guest.

More Boat Yard Pictures
hkading@rypn.org

Hume,

A buddy of mine who is a ship's pilot out of New York said the Coast Guard got on the scrap yard's back because the collection was impinging on navigation. The fines would have been more than the cost of torching the fleet. Friends of mine who lived on Saten Island have great tales of playing in the graveyard.

Also, someone mentioned the sad tale of the Alexander Hamilton. She is not sunk in New York Harbor, but rather lies in a hundred or so feet of water off the Earle Naval Pier in Raritan Bay off Leonardo, New Jersey.

She had been tied up to the remains of the Central Railroad of New Jersey's Atlantic Highlands pier, but disputes and a dredging problem saw her moored at Earle, where time and mother nature finally took her down.

Rob Davis

trains@robertjohndavis.com

> James,
Thanks for the compliment. Yes, ships are tough, but so rewarding.

I saw the Whitte yard years ago when I lived in New York. something that was not mentioned so far is that the Coast guarg and the Army Corps of Engineers got after the family for blocking the channel in the early 1990s.

John Whitte did indeed scrap lots of ships. The metal parts have value; the wood hardly any. So a yacht got the lead keel cut off and a harbor or railroad tug got the steam engine and boiler lifted out to be cut up. Lots of old hulls remain.

And old hulls always sink. Thus making them even harder to break up. As Whitte got older he did not do a lot. His nephew was te person who finially did the major clean up about 10 years ago.

Ted Miles

ted_miles@NPS.gov

Folks,

You are right about the locations for the alexander Hamilton. I was aboard when she was moved over to the Navy Pier. We all thought that she was about to start on the road to preservation.

But she was a lightly built river boat and a major winter storm blasted through shortly after she arrived. It would have been great if someone had salvaged the steam diagonal paddle engine. But as wlways, where is the money?

Ted



ted_miles@NPS.gov

> Folks,

One more thought about this. The Transfer is published by the Rail Marine Insformation Group. They have put out 33 neat issues about where Rails meet the Sea. Photos, Plans, Articles etc.
John Tiechmoeller, Editor
Rail Marine Information Group
12107 Mt Albert Road, Elliot City, MD 21042

ted_miles@NPS.gov

> But she was a lightly built river boat and a
> major winter storm blasted through shortly
> after she arrived.

Interesting- lightly built but plied the Hudson River year-round successfully for how many years ? I imagine she weathered many winter storms, so something beyond light construction must have entered into the equation. Or perhaps was she thrust into a no-win situation for any craft ? No operating bilge pumps (every boat leaks, and more boats have sunk from rainwater than seawater) , lying low in the water exposed to wind and bashing against the pier, perhaps just that freak surge administering the coup de grace ?
I spent many a year watching- and watching out for the A. Hamilton. She normally was on a tight schedule and usually cranking at impressive speed between stops, a fine sheet of bow wave curving up and swooosh, gone. Small boaters ( double meaning here as I was a young lad operating the family rag-tag boats) beware !

With the A. Hamilton on Newburgh Bay, the Ferry operating between Newburgh and Beacon, the NYC Water-Level Route, West Shore, etc. etc. it was quite a scene- and still is impressive even today.

Bill Conklin

heisler1607@earthlink.net

Bill,

Yes, by ocean going standards lightly built. And no winter operation, She and the rest of the fleet would be laid up in the creek at Kingston each Fall. Now that must have been a site! All those tall stack river boats frozen in the ice!

To keep this railroad, has any wire gone up at the New york State Trolley Museum in Kingston? Are they still depending on that Diesel car to take people around? Ted Miles

ted_miles@NPS.gov

> To keep this railroad, has any wire gone up
> at the New york State Trolley Museum in
> Kingston? Are they still depending on that
> Diesel car to take people around? Ted Miles

What good are railroads without context anyways ?

I regret I now am living in North Carolina and only make the Hudson Valley scene once in a while.
maybe someone else can fill in the Trolley Museum status. *and* whether there are still interesting hulks in and around Roundout Creek.

Bill



heisler1607@earthlink.net