I know that many of the steam railroad operations out there are volunteer based. Generally, choice of jobs is based on operational seniority. Training seems to be based on old hands providing hand's on information to new people. In other words, it takes a lot of time to make the progression from green hire to engineer--in many cases years.

Are there any operations out there that have structured their training program such that it is more of an apprenticeship (probably best defined in the classical trade union sense). Likewise, if there was such a program out there, would graduates from that program (sort of a journeyman card) be given any preferential consideration if they wanted to hire out on your road?

What would be the potential problems this type of program would face and what could the program contain to make it valuable to various operations?

There is a practical basis for this question that could yield some interesting new initiatives, but I can't offer details at this point. Any and all comments are appreciated.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

The only thing that comes to mind, to me, is something for the railroad industry.
I don't know if there are other independent technical schools for being a locomotive engineer, other than the Modoc Railroad Academy.
http://modocrailroadacademy.com/

From life experience, I have learned that IRM offered fertile ground for many steam preservation/operation folk to get off the ground, including J. David. But I know Steamtown, Edaville, Disneyland, Durango, and Chama have all served as the academy for those special few who really know their stuff.

What I wonder, is if the training the 1960s-1980s folks got could be useful for the young guns of today - in a programmed format.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Steams_Young_Guns

This is an interesting topic, and closely parallels some recent discussions I have had with friends in the railroad industry. This is not just a problem with steam, it is also a problem with commuter rail, which is a growth industry in many parts of the country now.

I have participated in a number of service startups over the last four decades and it can be very difficult to find properly experienced individuals with a wide range of skills in fleet maintenance and equipment technical support. Part of this is due to the division of responsibilities and the job rules on the major railroads, but part of the problem is also due to the lack of public awareness of the railroad industry itself. It has become a stealth industry, not considered important enough by our academic elite to warrant supportive courses of study in many technical schools and universities.

I have brought this to the attention of local administrators (of the University I attended) on a number of occasions and have gotten no response whatsoever. I get the impression that it is below the dignity of the "University Community" (as they call themselves) to take suggestions from people who merely work in industry, even if it relates to growth opportunities and new jobs. They don't know the railroad industry exists, they don't care about it. This seems like a great opportunity for some organization to step in, bypass them all, and fill a void.

PC

Training programs for museum/tourist railroads are more formal than they were 20 years ago. I'm certain in another 20 years they will have evolved even more. I would expect insurance, FRA, and other government agencies to mandate more formal training for all. In additional to operational training look for things like confined space entry, control of hazardous energy, OSHO 10 hour safety training, and hazardous material handling training for your shop personal.

The fact is we are seeing industry and government moving toward more formal and documented training for everything. As a vocational teacher I can say that the schools are feeling pressure from industry to provide graduates with third party certification in almost every career area you can imagine. My own students will graduate high school with their boiler fireman's license and documentation to cover their first year pipe-fitting apprenticeship.

Dear Mike:
A few rather random thoughts in responce to your posting:
1) Apprenticeships were for specific trades, today only big outfits like D&S or Strasburg employ enough staff to utilize such a program. Most of us these days must be generalists, with a specialty perhaps, able to attend to whatever needs to be accomplished.
2) Railroad shop apprentices were the recipents of the distillation of hundreds (if not thousands) of cumulative years of experience of the journeymen who taught them. The link between all those years and today's mechanics has been broken. Chris Ahrens (Steamtown) is the only person I know who went through a railroad apprenticeship with steam men and that said, Chris was trained in the diesel era and had to seek out steam knowledge.
3) About 25 years ago, Johnson Technical Institue at Scranton, PA, tried to launch a " Historic Railroad Restorationist" program (I was a consultant) to train people for jobs at Steamtown and elsewhere. It didn't happen, largely because neither the target audience or the target future employers had the money for tuition. Oh, and it was "dirty" work...
4) Many years ago, I organized a series of "Steam Locomotive Shop Skills Seminars" which were presented at the Valley, Steamtown and Project 1225 (Owasso). These were well attended and recieved, but were more a labor of love (read: weren't financially sustainable).
5) The best steam training program that I am aware of is the "Pawnee Steam School" which is presented around the country in conjuction with steam tractor meets.
6) The Valley has been in contact with a local community college about programs, but cannot absorb (read afford) either a share of the costs or additional staff.
I hope this helps.
A great idea, but as always, where does the money come from?
J.David

Before German reunification, the DR used to offer steam fireman's training for civilians alongside their regular employees as a means of raising money. The course consisted of one week classroom training and one week of student trips, followed by examinations. Those who passed were considered qualified to start at the bottom and work their way up. Nowadays, the Harzer Schmalspurbahnen continues this training tradition, and also offers locomotive engineer certification, but you must be capable in German language, and their excellent course of study won't apply in the USA for obvious reasons.

Around here, a couple of the locals with limited steam experience managed to hire out in train or engine service with UP, and then they got into the steam program and are working their way up.

It is, of course, impossible to grow an experienced railroader overnight. It is also impossible to do it in an artificial environment, which museums and tourist railroads are. The fact that the academic community won't listen to working railroaders also transfers to most museums, and recreational railroads, too, because the government bases recognition and funding of museums etc on everything in the world except railroad experience. As a result, railroad history is most often presented to and "interpreted for" the public by those who never actually worked for a real railroad themselves. No matter how much they may know about or love trains, the only way to really understand the enginemen's or any other railroad job is to actually do it for a living for real on a real railroad for long enough to have a serious impact on your life. As a result, those individuals who could best train newcomers have very little likelihood of ever being hired for any kind of job like that, or being listened to, either. I know many guys with class one railroad experience who also love trains and participate in the hobby privately. Like me, they have all given up trying to join or work with any kind of museum or tourist operation because it is too tiring to argue with people who never did it before, but insist on explaining things to us based on what they read in some magazine or online article, or their weekend experience fixing up an old piece of equipment. And if you have to deal with anything having a board or a committee, forget it !!! It only takes ONE to ruin everything you worked so hard for, and your chances of getting a straight answer from anybody are awful slim, too. In my opinion, that's why good teachers are so scarce. Actually they're around, but almost never asked for their advice....

Those folks who do the best they can under these conditions have an awful rough road ahead, so I wish them the very best of luck.

Work Safe,
Sammy

Just to bump this topic and provide a response to those who answered.

I believe what the operator is looking for is a key ready regionally accepted training curriculum, so that people who start an apprentice program at Railroad A can continue is at Railroads B or C or...... There are some possible limitations that might arise (traditional apprenticeship programs limit the number of apprentices based on the number of journeymen present).

Rummaging around the web did yield a more modern oriented set of training programs from Simmons Boardman, which includes steam firing and FRA inspection procedures. This seems to be ideally oriented for the larger tourist operations, or for certification training for operation on Class 1's. http://www.transalert.com/catalog.html

If anybody else has anything, I would appreciate hearing from you.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

As a very part time Loco. Engineer at the New Hope&Ivyland RR (www.newhoperailroad.com) I can report that they have developed a very thorough comprehensive training program for steam operations which involves both book learning and a well honed student learners program of OJT.

I would suggest you contact Mr. Paul Harland at the NH&I for the details.

Ross Rowland