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the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
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Author:  PLATFORMCAR [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:09 pm ]
Post subject:  the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
I recently looked at the photographs of both PA's that returned from Mexico, and the condition of both units... Amazing that one of the two locomotives has a secure future as more than just a derelict shell, ( for that matter has there been any discussion at all about the PA owned by the Smithsonian ?. )... Anyway.... after thinking about the PA's... it made me think how unique an ""FA" is... The "FA" in my eyes, has similar appeal to the "PA" as a lot of the same characteristics are shared It does not seem the "FA" has the preservation appeal as the "PA", which is curious as there are certainly very few of these locomotives remaining.

Just curious as to why a historic engine, ( such as the one shown ) can lay in total disrepair, with little to no interest to really see it preserved. In the same respect, would you say this engine is "preserved" or more or less just put aside.. as to look at it, like many objects, vandals, weather and time certainly make me question if the term "preserved" is a correct statement.

In the same respect, besides I believe a New Haven FA preserved and restored ( or being restored ) up in the north east portion of the country.. have any of these units survived to see a complete operational or cosmetic restoration ?

The engine shown is in Winslow Junction New Jersey, and not sure if its privately owned, or a URHS item. I photographed the unit last month, so the pictures are current.

So why does the "FA" not get the same amount of attention as the "PA"s....?

and for that matter, why are the preservationists not screaming ( or at least having conversations ) to see an "FA" restored or preserved ?

Just curious on the opinion of others

thanks

Dean Levin

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Author:  robertmacdowell [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
Until recently, all four PA's were in Mexico with an uncertain future. That made them close enough to extinct to make them legendary.

FA's are comparatively common, at least compared to "legendary" :)

I hope the FA in the photo gets preserved. I wonder how it came to have a cigar-band nose...
Author:  NPaul [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
To answer your question, off the top of my head the Grand Canyon Railway and the Napa Valley Wine Train have operational FAs. Speaking of the Napa Valley units, they are good looking. The whole thing happened before my time, but as I understand it, the PA's have a cult following that has its roots when the D&H bought 'em from the Santa Fe?
Author:  Joshua K. Blay [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
I've often wondered why in the heck someone doesn't/didn't take an AA or ABA set of F- whatevers or FAs and run them in different paint schemes, seems like it would be popular. Think of all the paint schemes we could cover.

Joshua
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
My opinion is the PA, with its long, elegant, body and nose, simply looked modern, fast, streamlined, in a way that no E8 unit ever could. The FA's are shorter and look less like high speed locomotives, and for good reason. There are a good number of FA's in preservation, in good condition, in Canada and the US, but some purely US heritage locomotives sit, waiting for their fairy god-mother to turn them back into operational locomotives, instead of cab-car hulks. At least for the preservation, one might thank the Long Island Rail Road, which collected them during the early seventies, and ran them as HEP units for a decade. When they were destined for scrap, a group of individuals bought them and brokered them out for museums and collectors. Unfortunately, not much has been done with these units since that time. On the other hand, at the last opportunity to save the last Erie-Lackawanna and Santa Fe PA's, only the D&H stepped forward. The scrapper (Pielet Bros.) had contracts with EMD to cut everything up without regard to historical value. The PA's became legendary.

I believe the cigar band paint scheme was done by a photographer who got permission to have it painted as such and then got his shots.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
Richard Glueck wrote:
I believe the cigar band paint scheme was done by a photographer who got permission to have it painted as such and then got his shots.


Well, that answers a thought I had about whether the unit was really New York Central, or not. So, are there any genuine NYC FA units still around? Or NYC EMD F-units for that matter?

Also, I think Dean's original question was about FA units, not FPA's. There certainly is a difference.

Les
Author:  PLATFORMCAR [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
so, its perhaps more that the engines seemed "lost / extinct" in Mexico, unable initially to be returned to this country, and through some negotiation, two shells were returned, along with some "cult" following of the "PA" class. However, after all the work and effort to see a preserved and operational "PA" is finished, how many "FA" remain and sit such as the unit in Winslow. I don't recall seeing an "FA" in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, B&O Railroad museum, Gold Coast RR Museum, CSRM, or any other museum ( perhaps other than the unit in New England... however I have not visited every museum.. )... so I guess to me, it, I would think anyone who enjoys seeing and appreciating a "PA", would likely also like to see a "FA".... ( no different than seeing the last E7 run someday.. and also being a huge fan of the E8 class ? )

I guess I just wonder that since such a huge effort and attention is paid to the "PA" class, seems the ALCO American built "FA"s should have a large following. ( yet perhaps they don't )

Or perhaps its because the US received a bunch of this style cab unit from Canada, therefore making a true ALCO built "FA"for a US railroad not as interesting anymore, due to a handful of Canadian versions running around... I suspect that might have a lot to do with it... ?

Just makes me think that an ALCO "FA" built for an American Railroad, no matter it be for the NYC, PRR, Lehigh Valley, Lehigh New England or SP&S somehow should deserve plenty of preservation attempts and attention ?

Dean Levin
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
Without spilling too much of an open "secret", there is an A-A set of FA2's in operational restoration at the moment, and they may be joined by a preserved FB unit. They might have actually been running at this time, but copper thieves did severe, really severe, damage to the truck cables. A second set of FA1's has been set aside for similar restoration in the future. These are owned by a private "collector" who is is working with a small budget and smaller work crew.
Author:  davew833 [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
I'm going by Wikipedia here so numbers might not be entirely correct, but I'm pretty sure they're at least close. 1354 FA's (And FB's) produced with approx. 20 in various states of preservation, maybe 20-25% of those operational. 297 PA's produced with 4-7 (depending on what's really left of the 3 in Argentina) preserved and zero operational at this time. Looks like a case in part, at least, of sheer numbers, not to mention that the FA (or variations of it at least) operated in revenue service in Canada and the US (think LIRR control cabs) a good 10 years after the last PAs were banished to Mexico.

For me, while there are obvious similarities in styling, the longer nose, the A-1-A trucks, and the elegant curved grille trim behind the cab door really set the PA apart. (Though it seems that SP did everything they could to make their PA's look like FA's.)
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
And the FA is no slouch. I'd rate it every bit as desirable as an F-unit, if not moreso due to its rarity.
Author:  joe6167 [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
There is an FA1, CNR 9400, which I've heard described as the first streamlined diesel in Canada as well as a CNR FPA$ and several other ALCo's at the Canadian Railway Museum in Quebec.
Author:  NH0401 [ Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
Didn't the PA cult originate within the pages of TRAINS magazine-back when Morgan was the editor ?

See the link below for info on the LIRR cab car fleet (which also included F units):

http://www.geocities.com/alsrelics/CabData.pdf


DPK
Author:  Randy Hees [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
having spoken to (now) old SP railroaders....

The PA's had dynamic brakes, which EMD E's lacked. The 244 Alco's had leading problems which were resolved in the 255 engined units. With close supervision, the Alcos were better locomotives over heavy grades.

The Alcos had graceful long lines, and better looks than their sister locos, be FA Alcos, or F or E EMD's.

Both EMD and GE had much better financing packages, with GE the stronger... never under estimate the power of money.
Author:  Mike LaBouliere [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 5:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
Grand Canyon and Napa Valley do NOT have operational FA's they have FPA4's a MLW product, more like a second or third cousin at best as I believe they are 251 powered. Complete one in existence I would say Delson, RMNE and I believe the one at Winslow junction but can't remember for sure. The rest are cab cars formerly FA's with external modifications. I remember hearing that there was a COMPLETE FB in the Pacific Northwest that was being sacrificed to make an operational FA out of one of the cab cars. Any truth to this? I always felt the FB was historic in its own right and shouldn't be torn apart.
Author:  PCook [ Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: the "FA" appeal versus the "PA" ?
I went to the D&H to photograph the PA's just because it was fun. They were clean and well maintained, they were noisy, and they smoked. And the D&H in the Sterzing era was a wonderful railroad with great people. If the locomotives had been FA's I still would have made the trips, it was well worth the effort.

PC
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