After reading about the zoo accident and watching the video, it made me think of a few pictures I took last month, of what I believe are the remains of perhaps the motive power that once powered trains over and around another famous curve in Altoona ( the Pony Shoe Curve ) at Lakemont Park in Altoona Pennsylvania. ( if you are not aware, Lakemont Park is an amusement park opened back in 1894, and is the 8th oldest amusement park in the country / and if that is not enough, it has the worlds oldest roller coaster, the "leap the dips" built back in 1902 and was restored back in 1999 .. and was also named a national historic landmark in 1996 ) ..

However with all that said, what perhaps many do not know, is the park has a railroad, and the big scenic attraction is and ( was ) , the "pony shoe" curve, ( labeled as such ) .. and shown in the old photograph that I attach... ( interesting that Altoona has a Horseshoe Curve, the abandoned Mule Shoe Curve, and a Pony Shoe Curve. )

Anyway.. given the interesting history of it all, and based upon an old black and white picture I saw ( and can not locate at the moment ) the Lakemont Park Railroad used a fine looking ( E unit ? ) .. to power its trains, until like the E units themselves, it fell to more modern power.

However I thought that perhaps given its unique piece of local Altoona history, that the motive power that once powered these trains would fair much better than other rail related items in that city, however as you can see, it to languishes, with a questionable future and unfortunately like so many things, has been left out to the elements. The photographs of the ( E unit ? ) are on the grounds of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum.

Last time I was at Lakemont park, a few of the passenger cars that once followed this E unit were still under the canopy at the old station.. so I wonder, given so many other things, how is this piece of local Altoona history perceived by the museum visitor, the museum itself and the preservation community ?..... Worthy of a better fate ??

( in case anyone is wondering .. its engine 4070... and has "century flyer" cast in the headlight housing... and a perhaps a built date of 6-1946... ) and if you are wondering what type of diesel engine the 4070 was on the PRR, unforunately they did not have a diesel # 4070... however Penn Central did... an F unit.. acquired from the NYC .... )

Dean Levin

A simple shed type structure built over the locomotive when it arrived would probably have prevented most of the visible rust damage. But who said that rail museums actually "preserve" rail equipment. In my experience I have found most to simply provide a location where rail equipment is allowed to rust in peace.

The best fate for this piece is to sell it to a private collector. The right person would have it restored and running again in a couple of years.

[quote="Stationary Steam"] In my experience I have found most to simply provide a location where rail equipment is allowed to rust in peace.

such as this PRR 1949 PS 10/6 "Birch River" preserved in Altoona ?
Quite a display... ( lets see... missing fluting, broken out windows, and the like ) does this meet your criteria ?

Is it "bash a museum" time of the week already??

I've NEVER worked for any museum - and almost any private individual or shortline or tourist operator - that didn't have something like these examples hanging around awaiting their turn or some disposition, in about 25 years of booming around in this industry. If you want to at least provide the appearance of fairness, you'd better start bashing a bunch more of us - and possibly us all.

I'm very pleased to have seen some real efforts at collections rationalization done responsibly in the recent past. Maybe we are growing up a bit after all.

dave

The tragedy of it all...if you were to approach the museum that held the 4070 or the Birch River and asked "will you donate that to us so we can restore it?" they would tell you "nooooo...that is an important part of our collection and we would only part with it for the "right" donation". So what is the right donation? Usually 20 times what it is worth restored...so then what happens to the piece?

FYI: I actually do know of at least 2 private firms where every choo choo they own is tight, rust free and in operating condition. Amazing?

There is no excuse for this locomotive to be treated this way, and if thats called museum bashing well then I'm game. Just look at it, it looks like it was pushed over there with a dozer. The carbody is twisted and junk is piled all around. This piece should have been sold off years ago as they clearly do not want it or know what to do with it.

Is the Birch River one of those cars with stainless skin and carbon steel framing? If so with the windows missing there may not be much of a car left uner all of that pretty stainless.

Excuse me, but as something of a journalist, I have to ask, before we start another round of museum bashing:

Exactly WHAT condition were these artifacts in when they arrived at the Museum?

There's a big difference between a prime exhibit that is allowed to languish until, say, the boiler jacketing is literally falling off and something rescued or donated at the last minute and set aside for longer-term planning when it's already in bad shape.

As a PRR fan and past donor to the Altoona museum, I was completely unaware of (or had purged from my memory) the Birch River's presence in Altoona. This indicates to me that it is a relatively recent acquisition; some quick Internet research indicates it was there in 2007 but even at that time was supposedly deemed a "lost cause" because of the exact same carbon steel/stainless problems Pullman-Standard late-era cars were famous for.

Now, let's take a hypothetical: Supposing I have a ex-B&O-service heavyweight Pullman. Joe Railfan rescued it from camp car service in the 1960s. It's got maybe two open sections left; the rest of the car was kitbashed into kitchens and a mess hall, showers, etc. Some other company saves it from Joe's estate, hoping to turn it into a disco car or whatever. Company goes bankrupt after a couple rounds with the Sawzall inside the car. A couple more rounds of this later, I grab the car as it's being switched into the scrapyard and have the local crew instead switch it over to the lead to the B&O Museum. Against their better judgment, they accept it, hoping that maybe some "sugar daddy" MIGHT come along, and if not, well, they now have spares, maybe interior fittings for an inside exhibit on day sleepers, maybe some roller bearings they can trade to some other museum.........

Now, who get the ballast rocks thrown at them? Joe Railfan for saving the albatross in the first place? The guys who took the Sawzalls to the car? The vandals that set the car on fire in storage or smashed all the windows? Me? Or the B&O Museum?

Sounds like the case of the Birch River has some extenuating circumstances, one of which is that these cars just don't hold up well over the long haul.

As to the park train, its yet another National Amusement Device set, and as an owner I can tell that this one is certainly in poor shape, but not awful. The position of the rear truck tells a lot. Either the drive shaft to it is damaged or missing, but under normal circumstances it should not be turned that far. Heck, at least the truck is there. Off hand, the body is not terrible. Certainly better than the worst of my two locomotives. The condition of the cars is typical of Nationals when left outside for any amount of time. Granted the set may have been in poor shape when it arrived. I don't know so I'd rather not place any blame.

I have had a couple of people who know that I own a National ask me to go out and see if it might be for sale. No, I really don't want another National, but I hate to see it rot. If someone out near Altoona would like to see the train salvaged, I'd be happy to give it a home for the right price. I'm in NJ and just don't have the time to do the research, make the calls, look at it, then set up the move.

I can tell you also they are fun to own so perhaps someone out there may want to buy it. They are big enough to really have some fun working on, but small enough to fit in the garage and even share space with your car. They are simple machines, many parts are available, and with the right paint job can look pretty darn good. And they tend to be fairly old with an interesting history.

Send me a PM at jrmay@monmouth.com if you would like to help save this little guy. I'll help anyway I can. Key for me is boots on the ground at Altoona.

I'd like to think RyPN can be part of a solution in a situation like this.

J.R. May
Wall, NJ

In the spirit of interesting dialogue, I would like to offer an interesting perspective on a few select pieces of equipment, and trust me, this is not "museum bashing", its the perspective of a State of Pennsylvania taxpayer and someone interested in preservation

First off.... the "Birch River".... my recollection is that car has been at the museum for some time, and although I am sure it arrived on the museum grounds with the Pullman Standard corrosion issues ( including the rusting of the steel structure due to water penetration behind the stainless fluting and windows ) ... the car certainly as I recall it many years ago, was not missing large sections of fluting, nor was it missing most if not all of its windows. This deterioration likely was greatly accelerated due to the lack of the most basic preventative measures such as putting glass or some product in the windows, and properly securing the car, as to not allow large sections of fluting to be removed.... So... although many will say "its just a common PRR / Southern 10/6", it is more than that... only if it is indicative on how this location deems its preservation and restoration policy. From the looks of this car, there was not much of a policy to allow a car to fall into such disrepair.

Next...

Lets look at another museum piece, prominently displayed within the fenced area at the museum. Many will recall the Jacks Narrows, which later ran in private car service at the Reveler, before being sold to a gentleman in Phillipsburg Pennsylvania. The museum acquired this very unique car about 15 or so years ago if I recall, and since then, I can say the car has not seen an ounce of labor or material in order to stabilize and preserve this rare piece of Pennsylvania Railroad history. This car sits prominently in the museum yard, with noticeable broken windows, rusted side sheets, missing parts. What message does this display offer to the casual museum visitor ? So, I would again ask, what preservation tactics or practices does this location offer... So if you were to read this posting and see the Birch River, and say "well its only one car"... you are very mistaken.. its almost every car. In the museum collection, the only items that have seen recent paint, is a partially restored D78 diner, the R60b, and the REA express car ( owned by the local NRHS group ) and PRR business car 7511 "Duquense" also owned by the local NRHS chapter.. A lone steam locomotive tender also has some signs of fresh paint on it....

Then there is the "saga" of the private car Loretto II ... which was the steel version of the car down in Spencer , once owned the Charles Schwab. The museum acquired the car in fine shape in 1975,, a local company paid and performed the repainting of the car in 1980, and then teenage runaways lit the car on fire with a candle in 1983. Its now been 26 years since the fire, and 34 years since the car was acquired, and the car sits, badly faded, neglected and rusting, in the museum yard. Inside the fire damage that destroyed the dining room area, was not repaired, just covered with plywood, and there rests another rare classic, left outdoors, damaged by fire, and neglected...

and... finally Harbor Spings.. a sleeper-lounge (2 double bedrooms, secretary's room, barber shop, shower-bath, bar/lounge), built in 1938..... which was acquired with the Jacks Narrows 15 or so years ago... in fair condition.... today it sits outside the museum fence, broken and missing windows, poorly made steel patches over damaged steel, and 100 percent neglected. Remember this is a feature car on the 1938 Raymond Lowey designed Broadway Limited. This car is very complete inside with its original bar and fixtures, yet as the picture shows, it sits allowing the weather and vandals to get the best of it...

So.... perhaps as a preservationist who pays Pennsylvania State income tax, I have the right to express my feelings, on what I believe to be a virtually non existent preservation and maintenance policy..... Its been since 1972 ( incorporation date ) .... and I would think after multi- millions of state / and likely some federal dollars, we have a museum who has not been able to manage 90 percent of its outdoor displays.... ( and I am intentionally leaving the millions spent on the K4 and the circus events around that mess out of this discussion ).... and not to mention the financial collapse of the museum, the multiple changes in management, the somewhat questionable management practices of the Horseshoe Curve....

On one side note....since Scott Cesna's departure, I see virtually no attempt to enlighten the public as to what is going on at this location..... ( should I add poor communication skills )

and for all those who believe this is "bashing".... sometimes the truth is hard to hear.... so perhaps you need to see the conditions ...and pictures do not distort the truths.... you be the judge .. if you can see positives in these images please share them...

( and let me say... I am just an observer... I have no axe to grind..... I wish things were better


D.A. Levin

Harbor Spings

Duquense

Anthracite Club

Jacks Narrows

True enough. But just as often, the asking museum has no railroad or land, living on borrowed property they're one vote away from losing... no plan to establish any real stability or permanence. Often they're asking for a piece of equipment from a museum that's better situated.

"Dear sir, we covet your Unit 1234, which is neglected and rusting away in your back 40. We STRONGLY believe it'd be better off neglected and rusting inside OUR back 40. Oh, and can you help with moving costs?"

Thankyou Mr. Levin for your comprehensive,factual report. Facts are facts, and we can either ignore them or use them to address issues and attempt to make things better. I too have often expressed my bewilderment as to why Altoona has allowed its collection pieces to deteriorate as they have and then to add insult to injury put many of them smack-dab in the front yard so as to be a visitors initial impression!!

Frequent leadership changes haven't helped ( although the most recent one was long overdue-IMHO ), but Mr. Levins point regarding the many millions of taxpayer dollars invested here is a valid one and leads to the obvious question......where has all the money gone????

Let's hope that someday the right management team will come along to take proper advantage of this museums great location and help it be the place it could be???

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Let's get away from the drama of rusty railcar photos and focus on the real issue: altoona.

Altoona is hurting. With the loss of Conrail, ACF, and just about every company that actually made something, there is nothing left anymore. No one in their right minds says: "let's go to Altoona for vacation!" Well, except railfans, but most of them are more worried about the latest NS has to offer on the main line than what sits in the museum. Their actual museum (celebrating RRers and the people) is excellent, but (unfortunately IMO) most people just care about the big choo-choos.

So unless you find a way to build a nascar track in altoona.... (the curve 400?)