Given that you have a 1935 5-ton pPymouth locomotive whose engine (a flathead 6 cylinder gasoline engine of unknown ancestry) is deader than the proverbial door nail, what are the options? (The bottom end of the engine, ie crankshaft, camshaft and all of the valve train except the valves, is OK. The valves have rusted to the block, all 6 pistons are stuck, the cylinder walls are solid rust, the intake manifold is cracked into several peices etc, etc)

What other type of engines have people successfuly placed in such locomotives? The thought of using a small block chevy V8, a GM inline 6 or a ford inline 6 has crossed my mind as these engines are relativley cheap, plentiful and easy to work on, the question of course is "is such a swap feasible or even possible?"

Other than the aforementioned engine, the locmotive in question is complete and in good mechanical condition so it is worth fixing if the solution to the lack of self propulsion can be accomplished at a reasonable cost.

Thanks

Jason Midyette
Niwot Colorado

Jason.
I have done a number of engine swaps and what you need to look for is an engine of similar torque. Forget about horsepower and also concentrate on the r.p.m. of the replace engine. You then will be in the same speed range without having to change numerous driveline items.
What is the current engine? Make, displacement, horse power, torque, and physical size. These need to be determined for the best replacement match.
Since I live less than an hour from you, I would be happy to help you.
Ira Schreiber,
Aurora,CO

Jason,
I can't speak with any real authority to your situation, but would suggest you should look for some sort of industrial engine rather than an automotive one. It would probably be a better match. Plymouth used several different makes of engines - Continental, Buda, LeRoi and some others. Generally, they provided about 7 - 8 horsepower per ton, which would put you in the 35 - 40 hp range. You might check with a tractor salvage lot.......Massey-Ferguson model 35 and 50 used a Continental engine of about 35 hp, Farmall model M, MT and 503 used an International engine of about the same size. Both were manufactured in the tens of thousands and there are others. Many are still available in running condition. You might also want to post your question to the Yahoo Groups "Railcritters" list. Lots of specialized critter information available there, including some who have done rebuild/resto work.
J

Yes, you need to figure out the present engines specs. Your choice needs to pretty well match the old engine. You might check out the "SmokStak" forum as those folks rebuild just about every kind of basket case imaginable. Posting a query with pictures may help identify your engine. You may find that rebuilding the existing engine is a practical solution. That would save some of the loco's original "fabric."

Your final decision on the engine might depend on how you are going to use the critter. How dependable does it need to be?

Jason,
As Max mentioned, I suggest that you consider rebuilding the existing engine unless your objective is to upgrade the locomotive to a higher state of the art with improvements in horsepower, fuel efficiency, etc. The fact that the present engine is seized with rust may not be a showstopper. The antique construction equipment sites such as ACME and ACMOC have lots of discussion about restoration of old crawler tractors and other equipment that has sat out in the open for several years. Many, if not the majority of these projects begin with an engine that will not turn. There is probably a workable solution to the broken manifold that you mentioned.

An engine swap will pose its own set of problems with mounting, adapting to the drive train, controlling, and matching the performance requirement.


http://www.antiquecaterpillar.net/ACF_v2/

http://www.acmoc.org/

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=109

Jason, I was surprised when I did an appraisal of a similar gas-mechanical Plymouth that as many parts were available as there were. Better than a 44-tonner in some cases.

At this point, these little guys have become more survivable than some of the diesel-electrics of the same era because you can fix a lot with a decent machine shop and you don't have a generator and traction motors that are completely unavailable for parts.

I'm astounded by some of the jobs I've found. Downeast Scenic Railroad just got a 1953 Davenport with a replacement gasoline engine in it, and the Lake Shore Railway Historical Society has a gas Whitcomb that a truck mechanic has spent about two years on rebuilding the original engine to spec as a volunteer. It was siezed. I got a look at the internals and workmanship and was just blown away by what could be done with what most people would classify as scrap on its own wheels.

It's a case by case basis, but yeah, there's more resources out there than on a typical obsolete diesel-elecric of the same vintage.

Jason, in a former life, (when I had a good job) I played with cars and rebuilt stuff that others would have pulled and scrapped. Like others have said, this engine is not trash but it is a challenge. I had an old Rambler hat had a siezed engine because it sat without plugs in it for 25 years. I tried everything then I gave up and sold the car. Then the suggestions came out of the woodwork.

First, try pouring coke in the cylinders. I hear it eats away rust! If so, you are a giant step ahead of the game. But don't pour it in there and walk away for weeks on end. Try it and watch it for a little bit to see if it is doing anything. The last thing you want to do is eat away good metal. And that is regular coke, not diet coke.

The bottom end should be soaked in a light oil that will dissolve rust. No, not one of the penetrating oils on the market. Two reason-they are too expensive to buy in the quantity you need-two, it is a light end which has a tendency to evaporate. Now if it evaporates, it isn't there to penetrate. So I would suggest draning any oil and/or water that is in the crankcase and fill it with kerosene. This is the lightest oil you can find cheap enough to use in the quantity you need. Once you have filled the crankcase, (and I mean fill it. You want the crankshaft and journals covered. Rock the engine back and forth to make sure you burp out all of the air) pour more into the cylinders. Cover with plastic to keep any foreign objects out of the engine. Leave it like this for a month or so. Look at the dispstick and into the cylinders to see if the kerosene is turning rusty. If it really rusty, it might be time for an oil change. Drain the old and replace with clean. If so you are on the right track. Now the space under the pistons may not have enoguh (or any ) kerosene under them so the rust up there is probably still in place. So I would not recommend trying to turn the crank. But you can clean that up with a cylinder hone with rough stones. If the rust is dissolving on the top of the pistons, there is a good chance you can pop the pistons out from the bottom after removing the rod caps. If this works, your local machine shop can probably rebuild the bottom end for you.

Do the same treatment on the heads by soaking them in a barrel tall enough to cover the heads.

And the intake manifold may be able to be welded by a professional who has the equipment to weld cast iron.

Don't give up on the original. They don't build 'em like that any more.

Later!
Mr. Ed

First, thank you all for the responses and suggetstions, they have been helpful.

My desire would be to use the present engine, however (as with all such things I suppose) money is a factor.

I finally got the cylinder head off and all of the debris cleaned out and it is not a pretty picture. Apparently water got into all but one cylinder and the freeze/thaw cycle worked a number on the pistons, causing chunks to break off of the tops of them. The valves are totally destroyed, in a couple of cases the valve heads rusted completely off. (I took some photos that I will post later)

I guess it comes down to figuring out if the present engine can be repaired at a cost equal to or slightly above that of cramming something else in its place.

Jason Midyette

Jason,
Another thought just occurred, which might influence your decision to retain the present engine. Given the size & vintage of your Plymouth, it is likely that it was built with a four-cylinder engine. If the present one is a six-cylinder as you say, it may not be original to the locomotive. A lot of the older Plymouths were re-engined at some point in their life. The now-defunct Union Railroad of Oregon even crammed a big Chrysler V-8 into their 1929 Plymouth 20t and ran it for years that way. Keep us posted on your progress........
J

As others and I have said, don't give up on the original engine. Cost is always a major factor. However, from your description I don't see any real budget breakers. Your cost to restore this engine will be heavily dependent on how much work you can do. Do be prepared for sticker shock when you go looking for a replacement engine.

That engine sounds much like the Continental engine in the 4-ton Plymouth on loan to our Museum. It blew a head gasket last year and the owner got a new one through NAPA. He said that most of the critical parts could still be found.

I agree with the others, go get yourself a half a drum of fuel oil or red diesel and soak everything in it. Just set it out in a sunny spot where it can get hot during the day and cool at night. After a couple of weeks it will have pretty well soaked into all the nooks and crannies. Take it out and take high pressure air to and blow off anything that's not attached. Then throw it back into the drum for another couple of weeks. Do the high pressure air again and you will then probably be able to get most of it apart without breaking too many bolts. You will most likely have it all apart and clean before winter sets in. Then it looks like a good winter project repairing it and putting it back together.

BTW. If you keep a tight lid on the fuel oil and strain the solids out of it every once in awhile you can keep reusing it for a long time. it will burn, so remember safe storage.

A lot depends on what you can afford vs. what you want to do with the unit. Old motors can really suck up $$$... I have a Hercules diesel that was started with a rebuilt starter and about 30 minutes of playing with the fuel supply, but I think we have a thousand invested in new seals, bearings, and auxiluaries... no pistons or rings. If you're going to putter around your backyard, a good used engine could be much cheaper over the long run. Get something common so that parts will be available in 30 years. Farm engines, with lower RPMs, are probably good choices.

I also second the motion that early Plymouths as often as not were re-engined at some point... it is historically accuate in that sense.

Nick

Jason, out at OERM all of our forklifts have 292 gas Chevy straight 6's. They are relatively easy to find, parts are cheap and plentiful, and with the long stroke, they put out great low end torque. Our Hyster forklifts weigh much more than your critter, and as long as the length isn't a problem, it might be a good choice to consider.

Plymouths were remotored frequently. Our 8-ton Plymouth was remotored early in its life because the mine's head mechanic didn't like what it came with and liked Detroit 453 2-cycle's.

In Jason's case, he needs to also define how the loco is going to be used. If it's going to be worked hard every day, then buy the best engine they can afford. If it's for some sort of display that will operate infrequently, then rebuilding the existing engine might be appropriate. At our museum we would probably rebuild the engine as it would illustrate the technology at a time and place, 100% reliability wouldn't be necessary.

Jason has some interesting issues to be resolved with this little Plymouth. What ever way he goes, at the end he is going to have a fun loco to operate. Given how they were designed, he can't go wrong.

I just read John Cole's comment. That Chevy engine aught to be almost a drop in.