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| FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28131 |
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| Author: | jim templin [ Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
It has come to my attention that the Safety Glazing standards are now being somewhat selectively enforced in a couple of eastern regions, along with some attempts to enforce AAR standards on a few museum operations. This is on equipment that has previously operated quite safely and successfully in the past, but now there is increased oversight. How widespread is this, is this just new inspectors feeling their oats, or does this bear the new imprint of Oberstar (he who ended the Delta Queen's cruising life.)? |
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| Author: | ctjacks [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
This has been a big issue, and I am very surprised that this hasn't gotten mention earlier on this site. Basically, here's what has happened: to make a very, very long story short, the cars used on museums, excursions, etc. have fallen under the "historic" category and have been exempt from many FRA regulations for items such as safety glazing. Recently, the word came out that the "historic" designation would only apply to cars build before 1945. No one for sure knows where this started or who started it. The ramifications for the museum/tourist/excursion industry would be staggering, to put it mildly, if this became policy at the FRA. As a result, the FRA has been barraged by calls from operators, owners, railroads, and their attornies for the past few weeks requesting clarification, and requesting waivers. I had a discussion with an FRA man last week, and he said the 1945 rule had been in writing since 1979 or so. I don't know enough about the rules to tell what the story is behind the 1945 rule. He did make it clear to me that the FRA isn't out to shut people down over this rule. How this will play out is unclear. I think the FRA will be overwhelmed by waiver requests, so I don't know how they will rule on them in a timely manner. Many groups such as mine (Bluewater) have requested the FRA not enforce the 1945 rule for the remainder of 2009, and the FRA seems to be willing to do that. Another issue for operators, if this rule becomes policy, is with the 4 handrails on the ends of cars - they have to come down to a specific length above the bottom of the car, and if they have been modified for something like an HEP outlet they won't be compliant. Chris Jacks. |
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| Author: | S. Weaver [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
FRA commentary from the Federal Register some time back: However, because the general application section of part 223 is broader than that in part 238, FRA has been mindful not to alter the application of those requirements unaffected by the May 4, 1998 amendments. Part 238 does not apply to ‘‘tourist, scenic, historic, or excursion operations, whether on or off the general railroad system of transportation,’’ see § 238.3(c)(3); whereas, part 223 does not apply to ‘‘locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses that are historical or antiquated equipment’’ and are also ‘‘used only for excursion, educational, recreational purposes or private transportation purposes,’’ see § 223.3(b)(3). As a result, to the extent tourist equipment is covered by part 223 because the equipment is not historical or antiquated and is required to be equipped with certified glazing in all windows pursuant to §§ 223.9(c) or 223.15(c), such equipment would still be required to have four emergency windows (emergency window exits), despite its exclusion from the part 238 requirements. Vol 71, No. 164 / Thursday, August 24, 2006 / Proposed Rules / Page 50284 |
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| Author: | Stationary Steam [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Could someone translate that into english? |
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| Author: | ctjacks [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Stationary Steam wrote: Could someone translate that into english? Until now, about all anyone needed to understand about these regulations were "historic" and "does not apply". The issue now is that the FRA may only interpret "does not apply" for equipment built before 1945. Chris. |
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| Author: | jim templin [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
It has also been related that they want to enforce the AAR 50 year old car rule. |
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| Author: | Gary Gray [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
jim templin wrote: It has also been related that they want to enforce the AAR 50 year old car rule. Could this mean that everyone involved in the operation of historic railroad equipment needs to contact their local Congressman? |
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| Author: | Howard P. [ Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Well, I guess I will bring this up--- As a dues-paying (organization) member of Tourist Railway Association, I have to ask, just what IS our DC rep doing about all of this? When I see his report in "TrainLine", it never seems to mention anything other than what new regs are coming from FRA, and there is no mention of the Association's discussions with FRA about our particular needs. Simply put, having to park any rolling stock over 50 years old (just because of "age") will put 98% of us out of business. Howard P. |
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| Author: | ctjacks [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Gary Gray wrote: Could this mean that everyone involved in the operation of historic railroad equipment needs to contact their local Congressman? Judging from my discussion with an FRA man a few days ago this is already happening. |
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| Author: | David Johnston [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
I have not kept up with the AAR interchange rules, but when I worked in the railroad industry, freight cars over 40 years old were prohibited from free interchange. FRA regulation 215.203 identifies freight cars over 50 years of age as "Restricted Equipment". This has been the law since at least 1980. I do not believe that the passenger car regulation, 238, has any age limit in it. |
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| Author: | S. Weaver [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Breathe, folks. Part 238 is broader in its exclusion of our kinds of operations than Part 223. Part 238 does not apply to the majority of our operations. Part 223 may apply. Talk to your local FRA MP&E folks about your situation. That's why they are there. If there is a problem, they will let you know. With regard to freight cars, as has been said before, if you run a freight car over fifty years old, and/or one that has items on it listed in Part 215, Appendix A, you need to have a waiver to operate the car. |
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| Author: | ctjacks [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
S. Weaver wrote: Breathe, folks. Part 238 is broader in its exclusion of our kinds of operations than Part 223. Part 238 does not apply to the majority of our operations. Part 223 may apply. Talk to your local FRA MP&E folks about your situation. That's why they are there. If there is a problem, they will let you know. With regard to freight cars, as has been said before, if you run a freight car over fifty years old, and/or one that has items on it listed in Part 215, Appendix A, you need to have a waiver to operate the car. Mr. Weaver, if you are affiliated with the Strasburg RR, you are correct that these rules don't apply to your operation - basically everything on your property is from considerably before 1945. It is the rest of us that operate equipment from 1945 and later that may have an issue with this. It isn't clear how this issue came up, but it may have first been pointed out by a local FRA MP&E person. Chris. |
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| Author: | S. Weaver [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Part 238 doesn't apply to anyone's historic, touristic or excursion operation unless you are otherwise doing long-haul passengers or hauling commuters. Part 223 may apply to an historic, touristic or excursion operation. Hint: 1945 may or may not have anything to do with it. We have a number of pieces with FRA glazing. Talk to your local FRA MP&E guy. |
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| Author: | Stationary Steam [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Where is 1945 listed in the regulations? I have not seen reference to that date. Did I miss is? |
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| Author: | kemcclure [ Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: FRA enforcing safety glazing standards previously exempt |
Here's a link to the pertinent FRA interpretations of part 223 regulations. They've been on the FRA website since 2004. (though somewhat hidden) My first experience with it was back when Austin Steam Train started operating, and a good friend of mine was the Supt. there. They found out about the 1945 dates from their MP&E man. http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety ... _7-223.pdf Kent |
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