Railway Preservation News :: View topic - Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem

Recent photos of one of the few NYC steamers to escape the torch. She looks pretty good. I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 027&nseq=0

I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story?

NYC "freight Mohawk" L-2 class 2933 laid at the old roundhouse at Selkirk, NY until about 1959 or 60 (the "Trains news photo). The word around the NYC area from older NYC employees (when I was a kid railfan in the mid-late 60s) was that 5433 (the Hudson that was painted up and exhibited at GCT about 1953-54 for a few weeks, along with 999 and an E-unit; there were plenty of publicity shots of the three at Harmon just before that move) was supposed to be "set aside", but the numbers were bungled and 2933 was held instead. Sounded logical at the time, I guess.

The 3001 situation was described many times. T&P simply purchased it outright from NYC, to replace the Texas-type 638.

Howard P.
Can't-Win-Em-All, CT

So if NYC 3001 was a T&P engine for initial display, I wonder where the number plate and NYC shield she wears now came from. Are they replicas?

Author:	tomgears [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Recent photos of one of the few NYC steamers to escape the torch. She looks pretty good. I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story? http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 027&nseq=0

Author:	Les Beckman [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
tomgears wrote: Recent photos of one of the few NYC steamers to escape the torch. She looks pretty good. I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story? http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 027&nseq=0 Tom - The wife and I went by the museum on Amtrak's eastbound Lake Shore Limited last month. The headlight and green markers on the 3001 are lit at night, so she makes quite an impressive display. Unfortunately, I have heard some reports that she is not really in that good of shape. Maybe someone could tell us for sure. Les

Author:	Stationary Steam [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
What happened to the boiler jacket? It doesn't look like they have any plans to put it back on.

Author:	Kevin Gillespie [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
tomgears wrote: Recent photos of one of the few NYC steamers to escape the torch. She looks pretty good. I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story? http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 027&nseq=0 The story goes back to 1948. The Texas & Pacific donated 2-10-4 #638 to the Fairgrounds at Dallas. 7 or 8 years later it had been so badly damaged that it was cut up on the spot. Since by then there were no T&P steam locomotives left to replace it, NYC 4-8-2 #3001 was purchased, and painted as a T&P locomotive. Sometime in the 1980's, it was acquired by the museum at Elkhart and brought back east. Maybe others can fill in more of the blanks on this story.

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
tomgears wrote: I think there is a story about a shop crew hiding a NYC steamer when they were all out scrapping everything. Does anyone know the story? Tom - I think the story about "hiding" the steamer may actually have been about the OTHER New York Central Mohawk in existance; #2933 at MoT. I remember seeing a photo of her in TRAINS Magazine sitting somewhere long after all other NYC was gone. This was shortly after the Reading had started their Rambles and TRAINS asked if perhaps she could be fired up too. The railroad answered that she supposedly had "boiler problems" but the noteriety of just her continued existance probably prevented her scrapping. MoT asked for her (even though they already had a 4-8-2 in the collection) and the railroad, probably reluctantly, said yes. Now, that is the story as I recall it, but that may not be the way it actually happened. Maybe someone at MoT can tell us for sure. It sure is strange that the 2933 somehow still existed, so maybe there is some truth to the tale. Les

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Author:	Ted Miles [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Les, I think that J. David Conrad was the person who moved the Mohawk to the New york central Museum. Maybe he could chime in on this. As reported above the loco was already out of NYC and Al Perlman's controll. He was also the person who made sure that there are no New Haven steam locomotives left. It took decades for the New Haven preservation movement in Connecticut to come back; with three main line museums in the Nutmeg State today. Ted Miles

Author:	Howard P. [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
NYC's Al Perlman had nothing to do with the last NH snow-melter 2-8-2s going off to scrap. The last one (3016) was offered by NH's PR rep Bob McKernan to on-line communities and to the two CT electric railway museums before it was dispatched to scrap at Modena, Pa. in 1959. NYC "freight Mohawk" L-2 class 2933 laid at the old roundhouse at Selkirk, NY until about 1959 or 60 (the "Trains news photo). The word around the NYC area from older NYC employees (when I was a kid railfan in the mid-late 60s) was that 5433 (the Hudson that was painted up and exhibited at GCT about 1953-54 for a few weeks, along with 999 and an E-unit; there were plenty of publicity shots of the three at Harmon just before that move) was supposed to be "set aside", but the numbers were bungled and 2933 was held instead. Sounded logical at the time, I guess. The 3001 situation was described many times. T&P simply purchased it outright from NYC, to replace the Texas-type 638. Howard P. Can't-Win-Em-All, CT

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Howard P. wrote: NYC "freight Mohawk" L-2 class 2933 laid at the old roundhouse at Selkirk, NY until about 1959 or 60 (the "Trains news photo). The word around the NYC area from older NYC employees (when I was a kid railfan in the mid-late 60s) was that 5433 (the Hudson that was painted up and exhibited at GCT about 1953-54 for a few weeks, along with 999 and an E-unit; there were plenty of publicity shots of the three at Harmon just before that move) was supposed to be "set aside", but the numbers were bungled and 2933 was held instead. Sounded logical at the time, I guess. The 3001 situation was described many times. T&P simply purchased it outright from NYC, to replace the Texas-type 638. Howard P. Can't-Win-Em-All, CT Howard - Thanks for the explanation. MoT's preservation policy seemed to be securing one engine of each of the various steam wheel arrangements. Their Hudson, Nickel Plate Road #170, was donated in October of 1957. Logic would have seemed to be that a New York Central 4-6-4 should have ended up there. Were all of the Hudson's gone by that time, and MoT "settled" for the NKP engine instead? Was the 5433 perhaps earmarked to go there but incorrectly scrapped instead? And by then, no other J's were left on the property? In January of that same year (1957), the T&P came hat in hand to the Central looking for a steamer to replace the 638. The NYC sold them the 3001, my guess is for quite a bit more than the scrap price. Outside of the 999, the Central had no steam preservation policy. Anything that did get preserved, was by "accident"; being sold someplace else and then saved later. Certainly by these dates, the NYC realized that steam power had an historic place. It seems that a definite decision was made that the 999 would satisfy any obligation they might have toward posterity. Was the 2933 a conscious exception? Or just an accidental preservation that should not have even happened? Perhaps the answer lies in MoT's files. They might tell us the real story. I wonder if anyone at the museum has ever gone through them? Or if they have ever been made available to anyone. Talk about a good book! That certainly has the possibilities of being one. Les

Author:	Richard Glueck [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Just a side note. According to people at the Age of Steam Museum in Dallas, the "vandalism" on the 638 was hardly bad enough to warrant scrapping it. The locomotive was not in great cosmetic appearance, but today, it would hardly have called for wholesale disposal. Plenty of volunteer groups work on bringing back the looks of locomotives in worse conditions today. This is what I was told. The Mohawk was moved from Dallas in trade for the GG1, specifically the GG1 that headed Bobby Kennedy's funeral train.

Author:	davew833 [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
So if NYC 3001 was tarted up as a T&P engine for initial display, I wonder where the number plate and NYC shield she wears now came from. Are they replicas?

Author:	DavidKaplan [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
This is a very interesting post. I have often wondered how one could vandalize a steam locomotive to the extent a scrapping would be warranted or make any sense. Several engines that survive today are probably in much worse shape than the 638 ever was. In vandalizing a locomotive, one could break glass, paint graffitti, or strip parts but what else would cause the T&P to go to the effort of bringing in another locomotive? I am so thankful T&P 610 survived in spite of what happened to 638. Seeing 610 on the Southern in the late 70s will always be one of my favorite memories. Even though no Hudson survived off the NYC, I again am thankful that two examples of large NYC passenger power still live today.

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
davew833 wrote: So if NYC 3001 was a T&P engine for initial display, I wonder where the number plate and NYC shield she wears now came from. Are they replicas? Well, I have seen a close up photo and they LOOK authentic, but who knows? One of the principals in the Elkhart museum (I forget his name) was also involved in a tourist operation that ran for a short time in the Shipshewana/Middlebury area of northeast Indiana; Amish territory! The line ran over an old New York Central branch and the steam locomotive used was the famous ex-Buffalo Creek & Gauley #13. But the engine carried a NYC number plate and shield (herald) from NYC 2-8-2 #1977, and was renumbered 1977. I believe that 2-8-2 1977 was the last steam engine to run in regular service for the Central, although I am not 100% sure of that. When the 1977/13 was eventually sold to the group in Logansport, Indiana, the number plate and NYC cast herald were removed from the engine. I often wonder if they are displayed today at the museum in Elkhart, or just where they are. Anyone have an idea? Les

Author:	Les Beckman [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Jeff - Thanks for posting the photo. The 3001 looks remarkably good as a stand-in Texas & Pacific 4-8-2. Did the railroad really have a 909? Or was that the next number up in the series? The T&P's personnel obviously remembered how to paint up a steam engine. It hadn't yet been that many years since the last one had gone through the Shops. So NYC fans should probably rejoice that the 638 WAS vandalized and the T&P decided to replace her. Otherwise, the 3001 would have gone the way of her sister L3's....straight to the scrap heap. Les

Author:	rjenkins [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Mohawk in Indiana @ NYC Musuem
Considering how many railroads much closer to the T&P still had recently-retired (or even still active) large steam sitting around on the property in 1957, doesn't the NYC seem like an awfully long way for them to go shopping for a new park engine? I'm glad they did, though. I remember doing a double-take the first time I saw the 3001, on my way through Elkhart on the Lake Shore Limited in 1995. It certainly doesn't take much imagination to picture her with one less driving wheel and one more trailing wheel!

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