I am looking for info on the pros and cons of putting antifreeze in a
1948 ALCO S2.

thanks
Tim

Hi Tim,

There's plenty I don't know about this subject, but after 13 years working in a BN locomotive shop, I can't imagine running a diesel engine without using anti freeze. We had a pinkinsh water treatment that was added to the water piped to our locomotive service ramps and fuel pit areas, it was also a rust preventive ---- I THINK (but know zip about chemistry) that it was called ethylene glycol. All our different makes and models of diesel motors got the same additive in the same proportions, and most pool power did as well.

With an ALCO S-2, you could be taking care of a dump truck or dozer motor just as easy.... so you can use Prestone. If you have any small leaks, wait til she warms up real good and DUMP IN SOME BARR'S STOPP LEAK. ALCO had a prehistoric product, but also an extremely tough one. She'll keep going for you I bet.

Work Safe

I know this discussion has been beaten like a dead horse over the last couple years, but the CV 8081 S-4 came to the museum full of Prestone and still has it. A lot of people will say don't use Anti-freeze in a locomotive. I am not sure if The Central Vermont Railway or K&L Feed changed any of the gaskets so she could safely be used with anti-freeze.

As far as other locomotives, our SW-8 (Wabash 130/N&W 3130/NS 3730/Pfizer 2) also came to us with anti-freeze. This engine was regularly serviced by the Providence & Worcester Railroad for Pfizer and was bought completely rebuilt from NRE in the 80's. So the 8-567-C may have been rebuilt to use anti-freeze safely.

So if you use it, make sure you periodically suck a sample from the bottom of the oil pan, after she has sat for a while to check for signs of anti-freeze (remember oil floats on water) because if ethylene-glycol polluted oil gets to the crank or camshaft bearings, it will eat some types of bearing material. As far as I have heard this is not a problem with the Propylene-Glycol (pet safe anti-freeze). If the engine is running just pull the dipstick and see if the oil looks like a chocolate milkshake also the oil will start to take on a sweet smell.

Another safe option is to use Methanol for the anti-freeze, this is what was used before E-G was first produced. Only problem is the Methanol will boil off during use and you will need to add more periodically.

Regards,

Rich Cizik
MoW Foreman
Blacksmith Shop Co-Head
Ct Eastern RR Museum
Willimantic, Ct 06226
http://www.cteastrrmuseum.org

Tim, and Rich,

Sounds like good advice to me. Natuarally on a big railroad schmoes like me don't make choices such as selecting gaskets that can be safely used with antifreeze, but it sounds to me like you might want to at least try and check up on this.

I'd have to say honestly that non users of antifreeze must be pretty rare, because FEGUA even used the ethlene glycol additive in Guatemala as a rust inhibitor, where there was no chance ever of an engine freezing. I'll say that if an engine freezes up without being drained, even if it has antifreeze, it will take a crew of experienced machinists HAVING A FULLY STOCKED STOREHOUSE several days working round the clock to thaw it out and fix all the purple places. Then, usually at least one more fill/squeeze/drain/repair sequence before the locomotive can go back in service. If you only use your S-2 now and then, maybe you could drain it between uses, but our big railroad experience suggests that draining and refilling any plumbing system causes leaks in gaskets and seals and creates more trouble in the long run. It also encourages rust formation because every time you drain it, you mix steel and air and water inside the cooling system....

When I was talking about adding Barr's Stop Leak, I was indeed serious, but this is only to be used in the event of a cooling system leak such as a gasket, seal, or radiator core, but NOT a cylinder head or water jacket gasket. If you have contamination of water in the oil or vice versa, you need to find the problem and correct it right now, even though an ALCO would most likely keep on choogling for a long time that way. The chocolate covered dipstick, or the oil scum floating in the water level sightglass, is a sure fire indicator of this kind of trouble, and should not be ignored.

Best of Luck

I've helped to maintain a couple of Alco locos, in a museum setting for 20+ years.
We had the services of the late George Hockaday from time-to-time. He was a mechanical engineer, longtime Alco employee, and later a travelling consultant on Alcos. In some circles he was known as "Mr. Alco". He recommended strongly against the use of antifreeze in locomotives. Paraphrasing his words (but hopefully being true to his meaning), "When it (antifreeze) gets into the oil, the damage will be done before you have a chance to detect and correct it." He urged the use of proper rust inhibitor solution.

We have run locos both with and without antifreeze. To my knowledge, we've never had one damaged due to antifreeze getting into the oil (we did, however, have a 71 series Detroit ruined this way, on a piece of construction equipment)

JR

Mr. Klng,

I think you may be mistaking glycol anti-freeze with Borate based cooling water treatment. The Borate treatment is is rust inhibitor and prevents cavitation and usually has a pink or green dye. The borate has no anti-freeze properties.

I know of no Class One RR that uses glycol anti-freeze, the exception being the new Gen-Set units. I would never feel comfortable running an EMD with glycol no matter how good an oil sampling program I had or how tight I presumed the engine to be.

Waiting for lube oil to turn to chocolate milk is waiting too long to correct water leaks.

EBL

There was an ALco switcher sitting out in Renovo, PA several years ago that had antifreeze in its system. It got into the oil and turned the oil into a nice chocolate sludge. Antifreeze is a bad idea in Alcos. Put in a hot start instead.

We have tried anti-freeze in an Alco 251 for a very short time. We also had the pleasure of Mr. Hockaday doing work for us. As stated, he was against this for the reasons mentioned above. It was very short lived due to internal water leaks that may occur between oil sample intervals. You will not catch every leak...and if the oil gets that milky mix to it, the damage is being done!

I've heard of alcohol mixes and other ideas to keep them from freezing. We choose the hot start or external heat method. As also mentioned, the prospect of draining locomotives can cause other issues with gaskets and such. With that said, it may be a good idea to use a little antifreeze while draining the locomotive. Add some to the cooling water and circulate it with the engine running just before draining. This will put antifreeze into tough to drain areas such as the after cooler, oil cooler and turbo. We spend a considerable amount of time blowing out such components when a locomotive gets stored, but it is tough to get every bit of water out. This helps to ensure that things won't break if you miss a little.

The other reason I don't like to deal with the anti-freeze is paying to get rid of the waste if something does happen. We normally burn the waste oil (or "used" oil for the environmentalists), but once it is contaminated with antifreeze, the burner won't take it.

Pat Connors
BSOR

Gentlemen,

Mr. Levin has to be at least partially right when he suggests that I may have antifreeze and rust inhibiting additives confused. On the BN 20 years ago we had some classes of engines with green stuff in the sightglasses, others with pink, and in the shop we had hoses that dripped pink and others that dripped green. On rare occassions, foreign road power would be noted on our lineup "DO NOT ADD WATER" because the owner didn't use the same additives that we did.

In Guatemala, I believe the stuff surely ust have been borate. I worked on steam there, and didn't taste any additives for the diesels myself.

While I probably should have just kept quiet in the first place, now this has me wondering about information I'll never need personally. However, it's a good excuse to go back down to the roundhouse and talk to a few old friends. I'm going to get back to you fellas with what they say in case anybody is interested. Not only that, I don't want to give out bad advice when I'm actually trying to be helpful. These guys can also tell me how these water treatent practices may be different today.

Of course locomotives should not be abused, and BN used an aggressive sampling program in an attempt to reduce down time by managing repairs to the fleet on a long term basis, rather than going from crisis to crisis. However, there were plenty of times when it was more cost effective to abuse an engine and fix it later, than it was to tie up traffic. Obviously the shortline, industrial, or recreational railroad environment is different than a gigantic railroad....

When I worked for Texas State RR we had two ALCOs, neither one would pass a loadbox test, but if they were not run too far or too fast with too heavy a train on too hot a day too often, or racked out past throttle 4 or 5, they did a fine job. There's fair number of switchers in industries that are in pretty much the same situation, and it's amazing how long they can last this way. Nobody much will ever know if the paint job is fresh.

Work Safe

The 'green stuff' may have been chromate based. Dumping chromates on the ground is a no-no these days.

DPK

I am not in the operating department at our museum but I do know two things about our ALCO diesel:

1. Antifreeze was tried.

2. Each fall, after our operating season, they drain the water for the winter.

Les

I remember Mike Crain of Locomotive Trouble Shooters telling me that he used copper gaskets in his EMD switcher so he could use antifreeze. McHugh Brothers New Hope & Ivyland RR heard that the special Baldwin Locomotive crankcase oil was very easily damaged by antifreeze, but very tolerant of water from leaks.

thanks for all the info

Tim Cumberland
Fayette Central RR
http://www.fayettecentralrailroad.com/

It really pains me to have to admit this publicly, but when I asked some of the mechanics who worked with me for BN, THEY SWEAR WE DID NOT USE ANTIFREEZE IN DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES. Where did I get the bit about etylene glycol, then ??? I don't know enough to make that up, but it was 30 years ago now.

What the guys tell me in the copied messages below must be right. I sure hope nobody took my word for it and screwed up their locomotive by putting antifreeze in it !!! If so, excuse me, please. My bad.

Subject: RE: antifreeze questions


On our stuff nothing could use anti freeze cause it would leak into the cylinders gum up the works. Some sort corrosion would happen to ??? forgot.

We used the same stuff in everything that was premixed. Borate and ??? We did put in water and pink powder if we couldn't get to a hose or were out.

I think the little GE 44 tonners could use antifreeze, but they used different engines.

On the older units (around 2002 or older), UP using borate pellets. On the newer (I beleive it's the SD 90's & some other units are using antifreeze. It's been awhile since I worked in the shop.

I'll keep my eye out on those brand new GE evo engines. I know they are a complete different animal. We've had alot of probs with them.


Don't know aboout Alcos. Green stuff was out of the hose premixed.

EMD used a steel fire ring and composite on the cyl. head. I can't remember what used copper.

Might as well identify the chemicals mentioned in this string....

The yellow water inhibitor chemical commonly used 20+ years ago was sodium chromate.

The pink/purple water inhibitor in recent use is borate nitrate.

The "environmentally friendly" anti-freeze now used in some engines is propylene glycol.

PC