Want to start your own steam powered cog railway? Want a backyard railway but live on the side of a mountain? Here's a deal for you!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Working-Cog-Railway ... 286.c0.m14



I'd love to have the Mt Rainier Scenic Railroad buy it, so we could answer "Well, yes we do!" when the occasional tourist asks if the train goes to the top of Mt Rainier. However... I suspect that the permits needed to build the line through a national park could be a bit difficult to obtain.

On a far more serious note, this does not bode well for the future of steam at the Mt Washington Cog Railway.

Only $100K? I'm sure they could ask much more for it.

There's a reserve price on the auction too. Not sure how much, but it could be a lot higher than $100k. I'm guessing somebody would run into the same permitting issues if they wanted to rebuild the Green Mountain Cog Railway up Cadillac Mountain in Acadia National Park, where this engine originally ran. Interesting that they're starting by selling off a working engine though, instead of disposing of the non-runners first.

What a shame that due to the intolerance of the environmentalists and shallow economics we ALL loose a part of our history and heritage. I would rather admire a cold, dead, rusty, grimy steam locomotive stuffed and mounted than ride behind a sterile, cold (note the same term but different context) diesel burning the stuff my fries where just cooked in. Steam made the cog. If I wanted the experience they are now offering I would simply drive my car to the top.

To switch to diesel is one thing. But to dispose of the artifacts associated with that history is another. We have seen it countless times - the Alco files for one and numerous other instances too tragic to recount but usually accompanied with a flaming hissing cutting torch or a wrecking ball. My deep rooted suspicion is that things are not well and that this is an attempt to stave-off the inevitable. (I hope Iam wrong in this regard)

Why shallow economics? Yes, in order to survive the Cog needs to be a money making proposition. You may argue that the cog has no competition but indeed it now does. It wasn't always that way. By turning to diesels cloaked in the mystic of cost savings and “environmentally sensitivity” it has created its own competition. A significant part of what made the cog a unique experience for those who rode it was the time warp effect - the ancient machinery and practices. To visit the cog under steam was to see how things where done the same way at the same place for generations - only the people have changed. Yet, somehow every trip behind steam was unique from the previous. Its something you never tire off. Now that part of the experience is gone.

Yes, many will indeed still ride the cog - but for different reasons -the scenery or simply a ride to the top. Others will now turn to its direct competitor offering the same sterile experience - the auto road or not go at all. This situation will only get worse as time progresses. Yes, they may save a buck or two today but in the long run they have all but sealed the cogs fate. At some point the environmentalists will gloat over the rotted timbers and bits of rusty iron as a trophy hunter gloats over the carcass of his dead prey while the rest of us look at photos, films and lament what was. Meanwhile those friendly, cost efficent diesels await purchase on E-bay.

I am in no-way enthusiastic about the demise of the steam-powered cog, and I am very sorry to see them already breaking up the steam roster, but are you sure its the "environmentalists" forcing this engine on eBay?

So far, everything I have read has said this is primarily an economic decision to ditch steam.

Remember, many moons ago the White Mountains were decimated by clear cut logging and fires, a situation that lead to the creation of the White Mountains National Forest... yes, concern for the environment and the economics of the then-struggling tourist industry were the key reasons people fought to create the very park the cog serves.

Rob

This is a sad situation indeed. Imagine Strasburg getting a few diesels and putting #31 on ebay. I agree it this might go much deeper than we see on the surface.

Don't blame the "environmentalists". It's all too easy to look for a group to point a finger at and say, "they are the reason for your discomfort". Environmental considerations might be cited, but economics, repair costs, replacement costs, funding to maintain the rest of the fleet, etc., etc., come into play in many of these decisions.

It's become fashionable in America, to create groups of protagonists and label them as "conservatives", "liberals", "greenies", "environmentalists", and "developers", and then point you finger and say, "I'm not one of them". I think that's a greater threat to our American heritage than the auction of a historic piece of railway equipment.

Mourn the engine, but stop blaming "them" as the cause.

Unless these national treasures are run by the government, this sort of thing will continue happening. The Cog and the EBT are long overdue for gov't preservation/operation. The need to make a profit will continue to sink many privately held historic institutions both rail and non-rail.

Rob

I'm not in any way associated with the Mt. Washington Railway Company. I'm just a long-time customer, steam enthusiast, preservationist and photographer who has really become attached to the place over the years. It brings tears to my eyes to see what's happening up there.

Some observations:

First, I believe that the environmental aspect of the current "dieselization" program is really just a side benefit that makes for good PR. It is difficult to imagine that the railway would make the investment in the growing fleet of custom-built, diesel hydraulic locomotives purely to placate the tree-huggers. The steam locomotives on Mt. Washington are exempted from pollution controls by a state law that recognized their miniscule environmental effect when compared to their historic significance. No, when you look at the economics, it becomes obvious what the motivation is:

1. Steamers need state boiler certificates. Diesels don't.
2. Steamers need two crewmembers. Diesels need only one.
3. Steamer Engineers need high pressure boiler operator certificates. Diesel Engineers don't.
4. Diesels don't need to stop for water or multiple water towers on the line.
5. The diesel goes to the top in 40 minutes. The steamer takes an hour and 10.
6. Diesels have a 2 hr cycle time vs 3 hrs for steam.
7. The railway can operate all day with just 2 diesels vs 3 steamers.
8. Diesels start with the push of a button.
9. Diesels are easier to repair.
10. Diesels burn 18 gallons of B20 per trip. Steamers burn up to a ton of coal.

As for the locomotive on eBay, we are talking about MWRC #3 "Agiocochook". She was built in 1883 by the Manchester Locomotive Works for the Green Mtn. Cog Railway on Mt. Desert Island in Maine. When that operation closed, she was acquired by the Mt. Washington Railway Company. Although she's probably been rebuilt so many times that little if anything is still original, she's still a historic artifact. To put her on eBay is a sacrilege and says everything about whats going on up there. I have heard that there were museums interested in her, but they were not willing to PAY for the artifact.

As for the status of the Mt. Washington Steam Engines, here is what I know, based on observations from the last 12 months:

#1: "Mt. Washington" - retired many years ago. Sits decaying behind the shop. Parts of her are collapsing into themselves.

#2: "Ammonoosuc" - still operational and has run in 2009. Has the feedwater heater modification and uses less coal than the other engines.

#3 "Agiocochook" - for sale on eBay. The story circulating is that this engine did not pass the boiler inspection and needed repairs. The railway has elected not to repair her and to dispose of her on eBay.

#4 "Chocorua" - still operational and has run in 2009. Uses the tender and cab from the retired #8 and carries the name "Moosilauke". The number on the steam dome is the give-away that what you see is a lash-up.

#6 "Kancamagus" - still operational and has been used in 2009, at least on work trains. Is often seen in the yard with the work train attached.

#8 "Moosilauke" - retired at the end of 2007 and stripped for parts. This engine does not have as much historical value as the others as it was built new in 1983. The boiler and frame sit out in back of the shop.

#9 "Waumbek" - the workhorse for 2009. Is equipped with the feedwater heater mod and burns less coal than the other engines. This engine was running during all 3 of my visits this year.

#10 "Kro-Flite" - still operational and has been a hot spare during a couple of my visits. Like #8, she doesn't have as much history, having been built new at MWRC in 1972.

Based on my observations, there are 5 operable steamers left on Mt. Washington. Just how many of them will continue to survive beyond 2009 is a real question mark. The appearance of one of these machines on eBay certainly does not seem to bode well for them.

/Kevin

I won't be in the least surprised if this engine doesn't get sold. I can't imagine who'd be interested in it. There's basically nowhere else it can be operated and $100k for a static display is pretty steep.

Kevin's points about diesel advantages at Mt Washington are certainly relevant, but it's a pity Mt. Washington didn't make more of an effort to continue with steam. I know that SLM (now DLM) came in a few years ago and made a proposal for new rack steam locomotives similar to those built in the 1990's for Europe and Switzerland. As I understand it the main sticking point here was that their engineers were not confident in the safety of the existing rack system and wanted to rebuild major parts of the line, reducing the grade sufficiently to allow the ABT rack system to be used. It's not hard to understand why that proposal would be rejected.

Nigel Day achieved great things with #9 and the limited modifications he was allowed to make to it and it's great to see that it is the main engine being operated at present. I would just really like to have seen what could have been done if a new locomotive had been built. It wouldn't have even have needed to be a radical new design, just correct the obvious deficiencies with the existing designs. Properly designed piston valve cylinders (no tortuous "Z" ports), valve gear allowing variable cutoff, insulation (why they operated so long in such a cold environment without ever bothering to insulate cylinders or steam lines is beyond me), roller bearings everywhere, a Lempor exhaust and feedwater heater system as successfully applied to #9, water treatment to eliminate the scaling that plagues their boilers, and a superheater.

More expensive to build than their home grown diesels? Probably, but I'll bet a steamer along these lines would have at least eliminated the diesel performance advantage and cut fuel and maintenance costs dramatically. The steamer could also have burned B100 or even WVO. One man operation would be possible with oil firing as well.

Only time will tell whether reduced ridership cancels the economic advantages of the diesels. New steamers would have provided the best of both worlds.

All very good points, when you view it from an entirely economic point of view.

However, if we follow that logic...

Diesel trains still need two crew members, engineer and conductor.
The track is still complicated and expensive to maintain.
Even with the new switches, passing is complicated and slows trains.
It is difficult to add more trains to meet demand.

You're still using an expensive and outdated system. The answer is quite simple. Scrap the railroad and run buses using LNG for fuel. Environmentally friendly, no track maintenance, easy to add capacity, passing moves are no problem, schedules can flexible. Reduced crew members, reduced cost, reduced emmisions, what's not to like?

Yep, if cutting cost and "green washing" is the top priority, then rip up the line and use the road instead....

Of course, if you do that, I wouldn't walk across the street to ride the bus operation, let alone travel a long distance. Maybe there's more to consider than the perceived economics?

As unbelievable as is seems, the cog doesn't care much about history, especially considering it hasn't changed much in 140 years. The first clue for this is, how many places keep locomotives built in 1866 on outdoor display year round in a fairly harsh environment? And don't forget that it also happens to be the first mountain climbing cog locomotive in the world.

They also don't seem to learn form it. In the late 50's they decided to built new aluminum sheathed coaches that appeared more modern to give the customers what they wanted. The customer response was often to wait for the next train that had an old wooden coach on it.

Will the response now be any different now? It's hard to say but I would like to have a candid answer from one of the people who sell the tickets about what the typical response is to seeing a diesel on the downhill side.

Hugh, the cylinders are not insulated because they are used for braking and get very hot. On the downhill run, they admit a small amount of water into them that is expelled out the cocks to cool them.

Roger

Great point, Roger. The world's first mountain-climbing cog locomotive does in fact sit outdoors in New Hampshire year-round.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 89&nseq=48

Given the historic value of "Old Peppersas", I'm surprised we haven't seen her on eBay too.

The eBay ad for #3 almost implies that someone might be able to USE this engine in some fashion. First, I believe that both the gauge and the rack system that is used at Mt. Washington are different from the only other Cog Railway that I am aware of in the US. Second, my understanding is that #3 needs boiler work, which might add considerably to the minimum $100,000 investment that the ad requires. Third, this engine is very much a "point design". It was made to do one thing and one thing only: run the three miles to the summit of Mt. Washington, pushing a single, 70 passenger coach. For all practical purposes, it is being sold as an expensive souvenir. Perhaps the best outcome would be to have her purchased by a wealthy philanthropist who would be willing to donate her to a major museum, so she could be viewed and appreciated by the public......something her owners should have done to begin with.

Roger, I kind of figured that might have something to do with it, but I don't believe the heat precludes installing insulation. The Swiss engines use a similar system called Riggenbach counter-pressure braking; water is sprayed into the steam lines which is converted into steam in the cylinders which keeps them sufficiently cool.

Government is not the only option. There's also a non-profit corporation.