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| Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28364 |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Here's a topic I haven't seen discussed: our local fire dept is giving us a hard time about leaves from a few oak trees in the ballast of our track. These are leaves from California Live Oaks, that are only about an inch long, and have spines along the edges. They tend to "lock" themselves in between the pieces of gravel in the ballast. The fire department wants them removed because they say the leaves are a fire hazard. We have used lawn rakes and leaf blowers to get rid of most of the leaves, but the fire guy says this isn't good enough. We also tried using a shop vacuum, but to get close enough with the suction to get the leaves, we also start sucking up lots of ballast, which isn't too good for the innards of the vacuum. Anyone else have to deal with this? Any good solutions? Thanks. Jim Baker, PSRM, Campo, CA |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Jim Baker wrote: The fire department wants them removed because they say the leaves are a fire hazard. That is a new one... What are they basing this on? Also, how much right of way are we talking about? So you've used a leaf blower and they're worried about the small portions remaining? What is the supposed source of ignition? Are you running steam? Does it frequently drop sparks or flame on the track? WHat about the leaves that aren't on the track? Who takes care of those? Does Smoky the Bear rake the entire state of Vermont every fall? Last question, did you donate to the fireman's fund last year? :) |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Off the wall suggestion... Could you burn the leafs using a brush burner mounted on a propane torch? Obviously you'd need some method of controlling the fire, and keep it from spreading and/or catching the ties on fire. But if you could find a way to burn them up in a controller manner... |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Bob: We are being required to have the ROW down to bare dirt 10 ft each side of the rails for our 6-mile operating area. The specific area where the oak trees I mentioned is a couple of hundred yards long. We are running a GP-9; the source of ignition he is worried about is hot brakes, even though the trees are only about 1/4 mile from the depot. Pretty hard to get even a locked up brake very hot in that distance. Leaves that aren't on the track have to be raked up, it they are within 10 ft of the rails. That is a lot of work, but at least is do-able outside of the ballasted area. California Live Oaks have green leaves all year, but are continuously dropping some, so it isn't just a Fall problem. Right now, it is the Extreme Fire Danger part of the year here in So. Calif. At this time in Campo, we have 20 mph winds and 15% humidity - not too bad. Any day now we could have 40 to 50 mph winds, 5% humidity, and temps of 90 to 100. A weed burner would be great, but I think they've been outlawed in CA for years. Open burning is allowed only right after a rain, and only between 8 and 10 AM, if you can get a permit. Jim |
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| Author: | Randolph R. Ruiz [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
I am not sure about the issue of local fire codes and such, but isn't this an area where the doctrine of federal preemption might prevent this fire marshal from having a say about the operation of your railroad? Is he going to require automatic fire sprinklers on the wood box culverts too? How about those trestles? I know local planning requirements do not apply to railroads (but I am pretty sure building codes do, so I am shrugging [virtually]). Otherwise, I suggest you either run a ballast regulator over the track, or build a giant "lint brush" out of duct tape. One of these suggestions is a joke. |
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| Author: | RCD [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
I believe this tool will more than take care of your problem ;-) http://www.tylertool.com/madcchsaw54c.h ... dcchsaw54c |
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| Author: | atsfm177 [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Well, you know, you really should be removing all those creosote soaked pieces of wood from under those rails too. They just might catch fire too..... <ducking with tongue in cheek> I write up tracks all the time for piles of leaves, needles, etc on the track, but more from a ballast fouling standpoint that fire prevention. I have seen rail mounted vacuum cleaners, but as you have learned, once it gets worked down into ballast, not a lot you can do. But it's also not much if a fire hazard then. But us damn government inspectors just can be pretty anal sometimes. :-) Greg |
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| Author: | atsfm177 [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
RCD wrote: I believe this tool will more than take care of your problem ;-) http://www.tylertool.com/madcchsaw54c.h ... dcchsaw54c Obviously, you're not from California. :-) People go to jail for cutting down Oak trees out here. They may be weeds in much of the country, but their gifts from God out here. Greg |
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| Author: | Stationary Steam [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Move to another state in the union where sanity has not yet been outlawed. |
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| Author: | Kelly Anderson [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
. |
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| Author: | brandi_n_la [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Stationary Steam wrote: Move to another state in the union where sanity has not yet been outlawed. Tempting, but kInd of hard to move the railroad though. |
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| Author: | F.N.Kuenzel [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Is any other RR in California having this problem elsewhere? or do these California Live Oaks only grow along your railroad? If your at least making a effort and attempting to co-operate to remove them you should be commended.You'd think the fire dept. would be happy? Maybe the fire dept. should volunteer to remove them if there so concerned! |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
Kelly: The "real" railroad that operates on the same tracks is also getting hassled by the fire dept. Part of the problem is that we are in Yard Limits, on a curve, so running at restricted speed is 5 to 10 mph in that area. Talking to an AMTK guy who runs along the coast, he believes that the 70-80 mph speeds they run, keeps leaves blown away. Our slow speeds won't do it. We've been discussing spraying water, but some of our folks believe that it would increase the weed problem. Our local weeds are so adapted to our dry conditions, that just a little bit of water makes them grow quite well. And, in my opinion, and most of the rest of our people is that you couldn't light these leaves with a match if your life depended on it anyway. I'm guessing that so far, Randolph Ruiz' suggestion of running a ballast regulator over the area would work. Now all we need is a ballast regulator! Just saw one listed for sale at a government auction --in Alaska! |
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| Author: | sbhunterca [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard |
CP has been vacuuming up grain to protect bears in Yoho National Park since 1998. Apparently the powerful vacuum truck is quite effective except in wet weather... http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/v-g/oursgest-b ... bm4h_E.asp (scroll down for info on the vacuum rig). CP could probably comment on its effectiveness at removing leaves and pine needles along with the spilled grain. Maybe you could get the fire department to support funding applications to acquire and operate a similar truck, given the devastation caused by wildfires in California? I can only imagine the cost of a rig like this, but it might qualify for funding from various environmental grants from government or foundations. Even if it can't pick up wet leaves, they will dry out and it might get them then! At the very least, the FD couldn't say you failed to do everything humanly possible to correct the situation. Steve Hunter RMEO |
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| Author: | Jim Baker [ Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:05 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Fallen Leaves as a Fire Hazard | ||
Here's a shot of how we are now dealing with the problem. A couple of our guys have electric leaf blowers. Behind the camera is a speeder and trailer with a 2 KW Honda generator supplying power to the blower. The "debris" is blown away from the ballast, raked up and put in the trash can.
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