Sunken locomotives in Lake Erie

F.N.Kuenzel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:21 pm

I'm not trying to start another one of those false stories of lost sunken locomotives that everyone has heard of before, but i believe this one may be worthy of some more research or investigation.I found this article at the Norwalk,Ohio library in the microfilm of one of the towns old newspapers from Dec.8, 1852 while searching for other local RR history.I posted the article on one of the other Railfan or Railroad forums just after those 2 odd wheel arrangement loco's were found i think off the coast of NJ in the Atlantic,the ones that were on that TV show Deep Sea Detectives or something like that? At the time i posted it everyone kept confusing the article with the 2 found off the coast.These 2 loco's are entirely different and are in Lake Erie!

Here's the brief article i found in the microfilm:

Two Locomotives Lost. Buffalo Dec. 8 1852

The Brig Concord,wich left this port yesterday with two locomotives for the Rock Island Railroad,when off Long Point lost both overboard and returned to port this morning.

This would make some sense shipping them by boat as the RR route across Ohio from Cleveland to Toledo was not completed until early 1853 by the Toledo,Norwalk & Cleveland RR.So i'm guessing these locos were being shipped by boat from Buffalo to Chicago to then be transported by rail to the Rock Island? Has anyone else ever heard mention of these 2 locomotives lost overboard before? I'm guessing they were most likely 4-4-0 locomotives.There's probably not much left of them other than globs of rust but the lake water isn't as harsh as salt water.It would be interesting to see if these 2 RI loco's could be found just to see what's left of them.Anyhow i thought i'd post this as some of you might find it enlightening.Can't be any worse than any of the stories of engines and cars in the botton of old stone quarries you often hear about.I don't think i'm going to be going diving in the lake anytime soon but i have found some interesting old RR iron in rivers and creeks,culverts that got discarded years ago by the RR's by just wading around looking for it.I've found numorous coupling link & pins that way wich some actually clean up fairly decent after being in the water for over 100 years.My biggest find was a 33 inch 750lb.trolley wheel made by Griffin.On the backside it has 7-11-12 LSE Ry. in raised letters for the Lake Shore Electric Ry.I managed to drag that home!

Bobharbison · **Joined:** Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:42 pm **Posts:** 3011

They're not always urban legends, and apparently freshwater can preserve things under the correct condition. Here in Washington State, a train of 18 coal cars was found in Lake Washington. Since they note each car only held two tons, it's probably safe to say these would be small 4 wheel mine carts, probably narrow gauge, rather than say a string of 3 bay hoppers. :) Still, the fact they exist at all, and survive intact is pretty impressive.

Quoting this page: http://www.nwrain.net/~newtsuit/recover ... lkwash.htm

Quote:

The history of Lake Washington is often shaped by natural disasters but human tragedy also shapes the lake. Contained in the lake are bits of history known only to a few adventurous explorers. Aided with high-tech equipment UAS has located a train of coal cars lost to the lake in 1875.

The train belonged to the Seattle Coal & Transportation Company, one of the early local business enterprises that succeeded in putting Seattle and the eastside on the map. In the fall of 1863, surveyor Edwin Richardson discovered coal beside a stream later named Coal Creek. Wagons hauled sacks of coal down to the lake where it was transported to the west shore by sail boat, rowboat, or Indian canoe. Six weeks later, prospectors discovered a richer coal seam south of the Creek at a place called Newcastle, named after the famous English mining town. To bring the coal form Newcastle to Seattle, the company constructed a cumbersome system of tramways and barges to haul trains of iron-wheeled wooden cars. Each cart was capable of carrying two tons of coal from the mines to bunkers on the Seattle waterfront. In January 1875, the sternwheeler Chehalis was rounding the northwest point of Mercer Island when a gale blowing from the south tipped the barge it was towing and sent 18 cars plunging into the lake. They remain where they sank, well preserved in 200 feet of water, many of them upright and still carrying their cargoes of coal.

Jack A. Siffert · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:11 pm **Posts:** 373

Fritz, You may want to contact these people. They are from Avon Lake and are very much in the "know" on Lake Erie ship wrecks. They have a couple books out and have dived on most all of the sites. The website will keep you reading for a while. Go to the interactive wrecks part of the site.
http://www.eriewrecks.com/
Jack

JimBoylan · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:02 pm

I have posted this before.
About 1980, a calendar of colorful old historic steam locomotive illustrations included the Morris & Essex (later Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, now New Jersey Transit) RR's 2nd locomotive, the Essex. The caption said that it was sold in 1850 to the Western Ohio RR and sunk in Lake Erie on the steamer Clarion. I told this to Gary Gentile, who is a crazier S.C.U.B.A. diver than I. He replied, "Lake Erie is less than 300 feet deep, it's diveable". Cold, fresh water is a good preservative.

F.N.Kuenzel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:37 pm

Jack, I will check out that website and see if i can contact the people in Avon Lake to see if they know anything about the sunken 1852 locomotives. Jim,I had never heard of the locomotive that sunk with the steamer Clarion.That now makes 3-1850's locomotives sunk in Lake Erie! Seems to me i also remember reading years ago in some Ohio historical magazine that a RR car ferry in the early 1900's loaded with RR cars sunk during a storm after i think leaving Conneaut? It mentioned the payroll safe was also on board the ferry.The wreck was supposedly never found and after it happened dead bodies of the crew on board the ferry washed up on both the sides of the Lake,hard to say where that wreck is! I mentioned that one to a guy i knew who once scuba dived years back and he said he had heard of it,but i've never really heard anymore mentioned of that one.I suppose if somebody who lives in or near Buffalo closer than i would check the newspaper microfilm from Dec. 8th 1852 they might find a better detailed newspaper account of the sinking? It sure would be fascinating just to see any underwater camera footage of any sunken RR loco or car if found.

JimBoylan · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:55 pm

F.N.Kuenzel wrote:

i also remember reading years ago in some Ohio historical magazine that a RR car ferry in the early 1900's loaded with RR cars sunk during a storm after i think leaving Conneaut? It mentioned the payroll safe was also on board the ferry.The wreck was supposedly never found and after it happened dead bodies of the crew on board the ferry washed up on both the sides of the Lake,hard to say where that wreck is!

Prof. Hilton's book, "Great Lakes Car Ferries", tells of the loss of the Marquette & Bessemer RR's 2nd ferry named Marquette & Bessemer No. 2 with about 30 coal hopper cars. Except for the safe, the details are as you remember. I think a letter to the Editor of Railroad Magazine in the late 1950s after a paragraph on the boat had been published was from a Lake Erie fisherman who claimed to have brought up a few railroad hand brake wheels on his hook.

F.N.Kuenzel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:17 pm

Jack, I emailed those dive people and they responded back already.Apparently there were 14 locomotives lost in Lake Erie in 1851 alone! Also there are 2 shipwrecks in the lake that were Clarions.A 1851 Clarion that lost locomotives and another ship Clarion that went down in 1881 wich they have dived on wich apparently has a railroad wheel on board but no loco's or cars.They did not say if they have dived on any of the sunken locomotive sites but said it would be interesting to do so but said they would likely be under the silt.

Jack A. Siffert · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 5:11 pm **Posts:** 373

Well Fritz I guess your question/story turned out to be allot better than wild quarry chases.

NYC5475 · **Joined:** Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:25 pm **Posts:** 10

According to Boatnerd.com, Clarion lost two locomotives in Lake Erie in 1851, but sank in 1860 in Lake Michigan carrying grain. It seems these are the Rock Island locos, but nothing of the Essex.

http://www.boatnerd.com/swayze/shipwreck/c.htm

John Risley · **Joined:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm **Posts:** 966

Trying to stay on topic. Is that accurate about the depth of Lake Erie. I was under the impression the the lake is very shallow and is one of the reasons the storms are so intense and quick to get nasty. Obviously there are shipping lanes, but overall thought it was very shallow in comparison to lakes Michigan and Superior. 300 ft sounds deep to me? Will probably swim in Erie this next week. Interesting thread and find all this interesting, Thank you. Cheers, John.

scottychaos · **Posted:** Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:03 pm

Actually, Lake Erie is only 210 feet deep! and for a lake that size, that is VERY shallow! ;) (Seneca lake, one of NY states much smaller Finger Lakes, is 3 times as deep, over 600 feet.)

Maximum depth:

Superior - 1,332

Michigan - 925

Ontario - 802

Huron - 750

Erie - 210

Lake Erie is the only one of the Great Lakes that can sometimes fully freeze over in the winter..(doesn't happen every winter, but it does happen occasionally).. the frozen lake was a major factor in the infamous Buffalo Blizzard of '77..The wind basically picked up the snow on the frozen lake surface and dumped it on Buffalo!

Scot

JimBoylan · **Posted:** Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:09 pm

Gary Gentile was talking about the maximum depth of Lake Erie being less than 300 feet, not the average or normal depth.
Back about 1850, all the ice broke up and caused such a jam at the NorthEast end of Lake Erie that Niagara Falls stopped falling for more than a day!
Besides lots of intact canal boats, Seneca Lake also has a boxcar, about 30 feet deep off Salt Point, NorthWest of Watkins Glen.

buzz_morris · **Joined:** Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:32 pm **Posts:** 344

Raising artifacts from the great Lakes is actually harder than in the open ocean. Not for technical reason but legal problems.
One very condensed review of the Abandoned Shipwreck Act.
http://www.baillod.com/shipwreck/projects/wrecklaw/
This covers all of the US side of the Lakes. not sure about Canada. Also each state has salvage laws to plow through. Legal fees alone could sink any salvage attempt.