Not a Cleveland car

Ted Miles · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:22 pm

There has been a lot of discussion about the Cleveland cars and the new homes that they are going to here.

But I wanted to report that the Seashore Trolley Museum has purchased a Detroit street car at the Ohio Railway Museum. and it will be sent to STM this month.

The City of Detroit had a large and interesting street car system in the old days. And there are only two of them in preservation before the PCCs. As Detroit was one of the few large cities in North America not represented in the National Collection of Street Cars at STM; I think it was a wise choice for both museums.

Not much has been heard from the Ohio Railrway Museum recently; their web site is very out dated. Does anyone have any recent news of the organization?

Ted Miles

Frank Hicks · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:36 pm

Ted Miles wrote:

The City of Detroit had a large and interesting street car system in the old days. And there are only two of them in preservation before the PCCs.

Just picking nits here, but there are actually three pre-PCC DSR cars: the two Peter Witts and Birney 223, which survives in the collection of the Canadian Railway Museum as Montreal Tramways 200. DSR sold the car to MT in 1924, when it was only three years old.

o anderson · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:00 pm

The only explanation I can find for the current state of affairs at Ohio Railway Museum is this article:
http://ro-a.redorbit.com/news/technology/358797/rail_museum_upsets_some_with_changes/index.html

o anderson · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:05 pm

Around the same time, in 2006, Bill Wahl was quoted about showing some hope for using the ORM trolleys in a Columbus heritage trolley operation. The article was found on a google cache of the defunct "APTA Streetcar and Heritage Trolley Site" so I will reproduce it here:

Quote:

Trolley may kick-start streetcar plan

Columbus Dispatch, March 4, 2006

By Dean Narciso The Columbus Dispatch

Bill Wahl is wistful each time he steps onto a trolley at Worthington’s Ohio Railway Museum. He can’t help it.

"You’ve really just stepped back into the history of Columbus when you get on,’’ he said of Car 703, which ferried people along Parsons and Neil avenues and High Street into Clintonville during the Roaring ’20s and Depression.

The museum recently announced it would get rid of its steam engine and other rail equipment to focus instead on trolleys.

So when Mayor Michael B. Coleman announced last week his desire for streetcars on Columbus streets, Wahl was ecstatic.

He sent an e-mail to Coleman offering his assistance.

"We should be able to market No. 703 as a part of your vision for Columbus’ future,’’ Wahl wrote. "It needs lots of cosmetic work, but could shine as a link between our history and our future.’’

Yesterday, Coleman read the letter.

"He was all excited,’’ said Mike Brown, Coleman’s spokesman. "He plans to, as quickly as possible, visit it. He wants to see the 703.’’

Coleman said local businesses will donate most of the $250,000 needed for a study to determine how trolleys might return to Columbus. Members of a working group to study the concept will be announced in seven to 10 days, Brown said.

Wahl said he’s thrilled that Coleman’s vision might revive his museum at 990 Proprietors Rd..

The museum’s large gravel lot is empty except in warmer weather, when excursions and special events take place. The hulking trolleys, cranes and passenger cars are in various stages of disrepair.

Wahl said Car 703, which had been restored in 1973, could be returned to "tiptop shape’’ for about $25,000.

Tampa, Fla., used two restored cars among its 11-car fleet, said Jill Cappadoro, spokeswoman for Hillsborough Area Regional Transit Authority, which operates the system.

The remainder, nine replica cars, were built by Gomaco Trolley, an Iowa company, and cost $600,000 apiece.

Tampa’s first authentic car was unveiled last year after more than a decade of restoration. The 1923 car had been used as a shed in the owner’s backyard before a railway society was formed to renovate it, Cappadoro said.

"The idea of using that rolling stock is something that hadn’t occurred to me,’’ said Bob Lawler, transportation director for the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission.

Restoring an old trolley can easily cost $300,000 to $400,000, said John Kallin, Gomaco’s sales manager.

Wahl is just excited that people might begin to share in his passion.

"I’m always amazed at how quiet it is,’’ he said of the cars, powered by 700 volts of electricity. "And there’s no diesel fumes.

"This creates a different ambience than a COTA bus.’’

As for Car No. 703, built in 1924, he said, "It’s beautiful.’’

dnarciso@dispatch.com

wilkinsd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:23 pm

I visited the museum about 18 months ago when in Columbus for a vintage base ball festival. The grounds were very cluttered, and I was suprised and shocked at the unfettered access members of the public had. The PRR Business car and two Pullmans were open for walk-through tours, even given their horrible condition.

Most of the traction collection was securely tarped with heavy-duty rubber tarps of recent purchase. Other items were not, such as the Ohio Public Service combine, which was in fairly decent shape, though sitting mostly out, I doubt it stays this way for long.

When chatting with a member, they asked how other museums get volunteers, as they had few.

Overall, the place actually has good potential, given its location. The idea of thinning the collection and focusing on traction is a good idea, given its presence in the collection. Those opposed to the thinning should be reminded that things haven't gone that well at ORM in the past 30 or so years.

Still, much work needs to be done in order to cover, protect and stabalize the remaining collection. I really have no idea on how one comes in and "cleans house." Sad, really if you think about it.

o anderson · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:41 pm

Found another link...
This one refers to ORM as a museum that existed from 1948 up until 1978. He acknowledges that the place is not the same at all, 30 years later.
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/n-orm.htm

Bob Davis · **Joined:** Sat Aug 28, 2004 3:25 am **Posts:** 1025

My first visit to Ohio Ry. Museum was in July 1977. I had heard stories about their makeshift carbarn and knew that they had recently restored a bridge over the State Highway and that their collection included one of the few surviving Niles interurban cars. During that visit I saw what was probably one of the last runs of their N&W 4-6-2; it was so marginal that an electric locomotive had to help it get back to the station. Their pride and joy was a Columbus streetcar that had been brought back to operating condition after years as a "chicken coop". They also were also running a two car set of Chicago "El" cars, one of which was 4449--same as an SP locomotive that was getting a lot of attention in those days. One car that was not on the property was IT 450, a double-ended PCC rented out to Cleveland RTA (I had seen it earlier on the trip in the Terminal Tower basement
It would be 30 years and a few months before I would visit ORM again. In the meantime, I would hear and see reports that the museum had fallen upon hard times. Political infighting among the members, NIMBY problems, and the perennial lack of money had taken their toll. In 2007 my wife and I were heading east in our motorhome, and our path took us near Columbus. A slight detour took us to ORM. Since it was a weekday, I did expect to see anything running, but when we arrived, I saw two police cars in the parking lot. Uh-oh! Did someone try to steal the trolley wire? Nope, the officers were investigating a burglary nearby and the "perps" had gone through the museum as an escape route. The president of the museum had come over to provide access for the officers and allowed me in to get some photos. IT 450 had returned, and was now their only running car. The CTA cars were in dismal condition and according to PNAERC, were likely to be scrapped. The ramshackle carbarn was gone and most of the main-line RR equipment wasn't looking good. It would appear that becoming a "trolley" rather than a "railway" museum may be their best hope.

Tim Lesniak · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:56 pm

I can understand the idea of wanting to thin out a collection in order to provide the best for the core group of cars that the museum management feels are in the best condition or have the most historical significance to preserve. However, a board also needs to remember that someone found that car that was available, arranged for it to be shipped for the museum, probably footed the bill for the purchase and shipping (which even 30 years ago wasn't easy or cheap), and probably spent a good portion of their life dedicated to that car preserving it or restoring it or other cars. Now, I am not saying that thinning a collection is bad, but it may become a nightmare if it is not done in the right way. Remember, that volunteer who was holding artifacts for safe-keeping for the museum, or has all those pictures of railroad or trolley cars in service that you want? You just got rid of his "child" that he brought to the museum 30 years ago without consulting him. Guess where all of the artifacts that he has in his possession are going. They are going to the museum 50-100 miles away because you just angered him by getting rid of "his" car.

If you plan to get rid of a piece of equipment, first talk to your volunteers. Explain why you, as a board feel that you should get rid of this particular car. Depending upon the governance of your organization (Board comprised of volunteers or Board comprised of business people), the volunteer base may know more about this car and that it is historically significant to the area or is a vital part of the collection.
Also, talk to some of your former volunteers. You really don't want to get people angry at you who have dedicated a portion of their life to the museum and who may have things in their personal collections that would come to the museum in the future.
When deciding to get rid of a car, consult other museums to see if there is an interest in it, rather than just scrapping it outright. You may have what you think is the biggest hulk (chicken coop car), but the museum across the state or across the country may be looking for exactly that car because it has local historical significance, OR it will round out their collection.
Finally, the proceeds of any sale of a car should be put back into the collection. Cars should not be sold to make some short term cash, because if that is done for the long term, the museum will eventually run out of its collection. Now, the money can be put back into the collection in a number of ways. It can be used for restoration, the acquisition of another car that the museum needs to round out its own collection, or used to construct a storage barn because that is now helping preserve the collection.

bbunge · **Posted:** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:44 pm

I've followed ORM from a distance for a number of years and recently visited it for the first time in perhaps 20 years. My father was a volunteer at the museum in the 60's and 70's and I spent most of my younger weekends hanging around the place.

When young, you assume these things will be around forever, but they rarely are. From a rare ride in one of the rooms in the Times Square, to busy afternoons in the line car trimming brush, to seemingly 60mph runs south of Rt 161 in North Shore 152, to working on a friend's Eagle Scout project, reroofing the Erie Motor, to watching the relay in motor #2 pop, to the whine the power station made as it started up, the distant memories are still there. My childhood cat was a kitten of a museum feline that would not allow members in the car of her choice for weeks after the litter was born.

My father, long removed from Columbus, always sad over the outcome of the place of so much sweat and work and effort (I believe he arranged for Buckeye Steel to purchase the PRR RPO, then donate it to the museum for $1), was glad the other day when I told him the Detroit car was going to Seashore, glad to know it was going to a good home, but commented it was badly rusted out from years of road salt all those years ago so they have their work cut out for them.

On my trip, I did confirm the PRR business car (Williamsport) and the PRR Times Square are now at Denison.

The museum appears to be under new leadership. Here's hoping they can make a go of the place.

Bob

Stationary Steam · **Posted:** Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:19 am

When I was a kid in the mid 1980s my family had relatives in Worthington and when we visited I just had to go to the museum. At the time I was there the centercab was running, as was one trolley car. I really enjoyed the sounds and quietness of the trolley as we trundled along their line, over 161 to finally stop at the diamonds and watch an NS train zip by.

Fifteen years later I found myself working in Columbus for two years as a CSX conductor. I stopped by the ORM a couple of times, yet nobody was around. Instead I went out to the Buckeye Central Scenic and did some volunteer work out there. I'm glad that I did, as that line is now but a memory.

I see that ORM has that centercab for sale now. Of all the equipment that they have, I would have thought that would be one to keep.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:11 am

bbunge wrote:

On my trip, I did confirm the PRR business car (Williamsport) and the PRR Times Square are now at Dennison.

Bob, any chance you could confirm the actual condition of the two PRR cars? I long ago had someone interested in going after the Williamsport, but was told at that time by what apparently was one of a large number of cynical ORM bashers that said car was no longer fit for interchange, let alone use. At this point, however, there also happens to be a short line group that actually operates out of Williamsport, Pa. (the car's final operational base on the PRR, having originally been in Buffalo and named accordingly) and operates a passenger train in PRR colors, complete with a business car on the rear. I'm thinking only the direst of deterioration would have kept the executives responsible for the rest of this train from acquiring the Williamsport when it became available.............

bbunge · **Posted:** Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:06 am

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

Bob, any chance you could confirm the actual condition of the two PRR cars?

Sandy, The Williamsport is a shell. In fact, I didn't even recognize it at first. It is on an isolated piece of track on the west side of the depot. To go fourth hand, a friend was told the trucking company apparently bent the frame during the move. Sorry, I failed to take any photos since I didn't recognize it.

The Times Square was east of the Depot on the track with the rest of the cars. It was between the string of cars and the C&O steamer. At least it has some windows. Some of the draft gear was sitting on the ground beside the car. Photo taken last Feb:

If this group can save these cars, all the more power to them.

As of last Feb, the John Greenleaf Whittier and the RPO were at ORM. The Whittier was sandwiched between equipment on an inside track; only the ends were visible. The RPO actually looked pretty good. I believe it has roller bearing trucks.

The Times Square and the Whittier made a great set to display the differences between the two types of Pullmans. You could walk a group through that train set and explain almost all aspects of 20th century rail travel; from baggage, mail to sleepers to executive travel.

http://www.columbusrailroads.com/orm%20pc%20set%207.htm

Photos by my father. The "operator" in the station was our neighbor. I rode in the Williamsport on the trip to Columbus Union Station and remember following Dad around as he took these photos.