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| Track Pans https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28804 |
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| Author: | tomgears [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Track Pans |
I was recently thinking about track pans and if they have ever made it to preservation. I think I remember seeing a short section of one preserved at the RRMPA. So my question is: how are the story of track pans being told in preservation? what artifacts exist to support this story? I think I have seen scoops on a couple of preserved PRR steamers and I think the B&O President Washington. Others? How many railroads picked up water on the fly? Was it an Eastern thing only? |
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| Author: | k5ahudson [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
The New York Central used track pans. |
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| Author: | Onder [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
This would be a great item for a preserved railway in England. They have some pretty nicely developed locations over there. Same with RPO pickups. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
The problems with track pans in preservation are threefold: One, you need an absolutely level stretch of track, or more specifically a stretch of track with a long level middle and very slight inclines at either end. Second, water scooping only works at a moderately high speed, say 40+ mph. Not every excursion railway (in fact, darned few) have track standards that would allow that speed for demonstration. Third, if one examines vintage movie footage of water scooping (and I'm sure others here will find them pronto on YouTube and post links), both the splashing wake from the scoop and overflow from the tender tended to produce horrendous water spillage on the permanent way [right of way], basically equivalent to hosing the ballast with a small fire hose. The permanent way at some British track pans was reinforced with special ballast/drainage and Belgian block [cobblestones], and were still nonetheless labour-intensive operations much more troublesome than just a simple water tower or standpipe, requiring on-site vigilance and maintenance, and wintertime steam lines to keep the pans liquid. I doubt even a miniature steam railway would be up to the task of a demonstration operation of this sort, let alone any excursion line. |
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| Author: | Onder [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
True, it is a lot of hassle. I believe 40 was max speed on the NYC until they came up with overflow vents on the centipede tenders. True, they had to have a boiler to keep the pans unfrozen. Pix Ive seen of the NYC in the NY area show the cobbled ROW to recover splashed water. But it would be an attraction and since there are so many preserved roads in England, it might be worth it. They don't have severe cold there and many are closed for the worst of winter anyway. http://tinyurl.com/y9jg9zp |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
Onder wrote: But it would be an attraction and since there are so many preserved roads in England, it might be worth it. They don't have severe cold there December 19th (photo from Heritage Railway by Brian Sharpe):  Also:  About two weeks ago on a permanent-way project on the NYMR:  Danged global warming........ |
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| Author: | Michael Allen [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
NYC tenders other than the PT-4 tenders were also vented to allow for high-speed pickup. NYC enginemen were instructed to slow to 80 mph when picking up water. My father took movies along the Michigan Central pans east of Chelsea, some of them taken from a friend's Packard convertible, pacing the train at 85 mph (auto speedo's weren't all that reliable back then though). With double-headed Hudsons, when the lead engine's tender filled, the overflow spray nearly hid the following engine. With a single loco, the front half of the baggage or RPO following would nearly disappear. Michael Allen |
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| Author: | Kelly Anderson [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
. |
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| Author: | G. W. Laepple [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
My wife's grandfather, who retired from a 42-year career in engine service on the PRR in 1958, told me a (probably apocryphal) story about a westbound Middle Division train in deepest mid-winter. Water in the troughs was warmed by a steam plant so that scooping could take place. (The PRR's top speed for scooping water was 35 mph, by the way.) A hobo was riding the blind end of the baggage car right behind the engine, and on arrival at Altoona, he had to be chipped free of the ice which had encased him. |
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| Author: | n2qhvRMLI [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
Regarding track pans, you may enjoy this several page article on the subject: http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/scoop2.htm de Don n2qhvRMLI |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
A Trains magazine autobiography piece from the 1970's describes the same event of a hobo freezing due to water collection at speed on the PRR. It was a multi-page story with illustrations. |
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| Author: | dinwitty [ Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
Does Strasburg have an operating engine with a scoop? They do take some track territory, but there's other issues, lowering/raising the scoop in time. One false move you will not want to use a pan again, let alone the damage to whatever. I actually like the concept, if you set up a demonstration siding near a station and the waiting passengers can watch the engine go for a "scoop" at a safe distance. The pan is really set up for the high speed runs and and unique for the NYC and PRR, most other lines did not. For today extra needed water is carried by a supplemental tender. Track pans kept train weight down without an extra tender or larger tender and keep the train going. |
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| Author: | F.N.Kuenzel [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
Now that the subject of track pans has come up and not to stray away from the original question of any being preserved.What year were they first installed on the either the LS&MS/NYC or PRR? Also what were the locations and exactly how many were there on both those 2 railroads? Where they used right up to the end of steam on both RR's or were they discontinued before? I know that Huron,Ohio had one and have heard of and seen a few pictures of some others on the NYC over the years but never really knew much of the history of them. In one of the old telegrams i have from the Norwalk,Ohio LS&MS shops from May 8 of either 1895 or 1899 it mentions the RR wanting to send engine #597 to Huron,Ohio the following day for a test.I alway's wondered if it wasn't to test the track pan there? But didn't know if they dated back that far? |
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| Author: | F.N.Kuenzel [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:28 am ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans | ||
I've attached a scan of a Lake Shore track pan from 2 old photo postcards i had dating back somewhere around the 1910 time period? I'm unsure of the exact location and year as they are unmarked and have no postmarks,but i'm guessing these might be somewhere near Elkhart? Looks like it's by a bridge over a river.I know Huron's was near the Huron river there but don't think these photo's are at Huron,Ohio.Anyone have any idea of the exact location? Where tracks pans placed at river locations due to a good water supply?
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| Author: | dinwitty [ Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Track Pans |
quick check off MR mag search, Maine Central had pans, great western had them (web search. http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/W ... onMenu.htm somewhat definative locations of track pans. Might help on the pics (Chesterton?) |
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