I just deleted the thread with this title...

Unfortunately there were allegations by name. Several members of the board have expressed concern.

Discussions about the Loop remain welcome, but the all need to remember the list's guide lines. Some discussion about how to aproach this topic is also welcome, as long as it is productive. I.E. be careful about what you say about each other.

Unfortunately over the last several years we have seen changes on this wonderful and historic tourist line. The long term operator ended up leaving with most of the rolling stock. Several others have tried to step in. Some motivated by profit, others by love of railroading and steam. There are a lot of victims here.

Please be careful when posting on the subject.

Thank you
Randy Hees, Moderator RYPN Interchange

Apparently discussion about the loop is not welcome. The discussion is gone. Now I wish I would have read the thread.

Discussion is still welcome...

The problem is the personalities, and how they are expressed. There are a lot of emotionally envolved folks here... a lot of good folks...

The Georgetown Loop was a private operation on property owned by a State agency... with construction in part funded by state grants.

After many years of very successful operations, the state and the operator came to loggerheads over a new contract. From a distance, it appears the state employees believed the line was a cash cow, and the operator feeling squeezed by insurance costs were both looking for concessions from the other.

The result was that the original operator left, taking the rolling stock, which he owned, and the state agency was left scrambling for a new operator, and rolling stock.

The new operator, using the dog's dinner of found rolling stock, could not offer the lever of service the previous operator did. The state agency tried to find other locomotives, and using state contracting tried to have them rebuilt, with limited success.

Add a locomotive, sourced outside Colorado which had previously been rebuilt for a insular tourist operation in another state, to other than FRA standards, and the struggles of various operators to make it work under FRA scrutiny, and rebuild what had been done before.

Add bad feelings from the original operator and their supporters... add others that the state employees and some from the original operator were all dabbling in local politics.

Some good folks got involved trying to make the railroad work, with interference from bureaucracy...

Add some contracts for additional equipment, which didn't work as expected.

Add the second operator pulling out, and new operators trying to make it work

Add rhetoric, from the state agency about being more historically accurate... rebuilding a 19th century original locomotive (which they had owned for years, stored on the line, un-restored until this conflict) for the line, but not fully funding the restoration, so not all recommended work was done... so after being used for regular service (instead of limited service) it failed and has been sent elsewhere. Along the way there were issues with asbestosis not expected by the folks in charge (not researching the issue??? maybe) making the whole thing take longer and cost more...

There are historic passenger cars in a glass building, built during the operators crisis, restored by the state, with questionable research and supervision, which don't fit through the door. Modifications to the original passenger depot. Relationships with the merchants.

It is a study in how things go bad...

We can discuss that, but No name calling... which is hard

Now back to our ongoing discussion

Randy -

I am not going to argue with your decision. I think you probably did the right thing. What I was hoping for, was someone to post a photo of the 2-6-2 which was the original reason for this thread. Maybe somebody will do that someday, and maybe even a photo of the way she looked before this latest revival.

Les

Is this the Locomotive we were waiting for photographs of.... its on their website under February 2010 update
http://www.glrrupdates.com/updates/2010 ... 0/feb.html

Cheers

Mike Pannell
Cheyenne

Randy did the right thing. There is a narrow gauge forum specifically for slander and libel (sort of kidding) and I am sure anyone looking for a heated discussion on the GLRR will find one there. And no, I am not linking to it. A search will find what you are looking for.

Rob

Can anyone inform me of how long C&S 9 was in service and what was the nature of its failure? Are there any current plans for it? Based on pictures, it was a neat looking little loco while it lasted.

Thanks,
Nick

Given the revolving door in the enginehouse, here's my experience with 9:

I was working in Spring, 2006 helping Railstar with the preseason startup. 9 was delivered from Strasburg CO maybe a week or two before first day. The delivery crew fired it up in about 55 minutes from cold. It had previously been test fired and run a few feet back and forth on a panel track in Strasburg. It had many serious deficiencies and was in no shape to be put into service. There was an event scheduled as a sort of homecoming for 9 sponsored by CHS - we got it hot and ran it out of the enginehouse, during which the fire went out and wouldn't relight - I was running, Dan Adler was firing. We sat there leaking steam while speeches were made, and were forced to back in to the house due to low pressure before we were supposed to. I am given to understand that, after I left shortly thereafter, a lot of work was done on 9 and she worked some trains during that season, but was found unreliable and in need of some major work.

I returned in Winter, 2007, and found both 9 and 12 torn down and spread out around the property, which supports the information I was told regarding the need for major work. Much of both engines was buried under snow. I moved the carcass out to the rip track and did nothing more on her apart from try to find and organize the parts and start to plan for an overhaul, which I was not a part of, and I assume has since happened in some form or other.

I can't speak as to the exact nature of how 9 ran in service and just what work was done, since I was not privy to that. Perhaps somebody who was working there at the time can provide that information. My general secondhand impression was that she was a strong and capable locomotive on the occasions she worked without incident, perhaps a better locomotive than 12 for the grades and 6 car trains, and a real overhaul by a competent shop, permitted to do their work without interference, would have been productive.

This is all I either know firsthand or have been told by reputable sources who were there when I wasn't - somebody elsle will have to fill in the spaces.

dave

For one season, she put on a great show:

Rebirth of a Historic Colorado Narrow Gauge Engine:
http://railroadglorydays.com/CS9

Glen

I have never been to the Georgetown Loop, but have followed the discussion of the situation out there over the past few years. The recent photos of the restored #12 have me thinking that it may be time to schedule a trip out there.

Glen, thanks for posting the photo essay on #9. I have a few questions for anyone who might have some knowledge of her current situation:

Does anyone know if she's still on the property?

Is the primary issue the design of her boiler (lap seam)?

Does she burn coal or oil?

Are there any plans to restore her as well?

Thanks!

/Kevin

Another great photo essay Glen! Thanks for posting.

Thanks Tom and Kevin,

Here are my attempts to answer Kevin's questions:

Number 9 is now in Brekinridge for display.

I believe the boiler is newer than lap seam (it was replaced while on the C&S).

It was converted to oil when overhauled for service on the Loop.

That one is very unclear.

Glen

Mechanical issues were - as I was told, and from what I laid hands on - the general overall condition of pretty much everything. The overhaul was in fact not an overhaul, just an ill conceived fuel conversion and a bit of a go - through, and as previously indicated much was required before it could even work through part of a season. It was mechanically torn down and on shop trucks pending a comprehensive overhaul proposal when I arrived there in February, 2007. I have no idea what was done apart from bolting it all back together after July, 2007.

I'm unaware of any specific condition relating to the boiler which would have been irrepairably critical or condemning.

I also sense the issue was less about its mechanical condition - which required nothing but a competent shop, time and money - but the ownership and lease agreements between CHS and the locomotives owners. I'm not privy to those negotiations either and can't supply any concrete details. No doubt that information could be posted here by those with an inside perspective, if they so choose. Just trying to keep the railroad together was more than enough to keep me occupied while the politicians and bureaucrats did their thing........

EDIT: reference to the Locomotives Owners above refers to the Breckenridge locomotive (also in possession of CHS), not 9 - sorry for not making msyelf clear.

dave

I think it is interesting, if nothing else, that steam has managed to remain at the Georgetown Loop in one form or another and at varying intervals since Rail Star first came on the scene. I can't believe it is an easy thing to make operational something that has been static for many years. I may be naive, but I think all operational hours of steam can be viewed as a success and anybody involved deserves credit for it.

S.O.

now I wish i had seen the thread before it was deleted......
many things happened out there, some bad, some good......
everyone involved shares both some credit and some blame, mostly due to their own egos.