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Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
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Author:  rbarcus [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:33 am ]
Post subject:  Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
I'm trying to figure out if there is a "better way" of dealing with the grade crossing issue in a push-pull scenario. Specifically, what is your organization doing to alleviate the need for a flagman at each grade crossing when performing a shove move (if at all)? The poll questions pretty much covers all of the possible answers, but I would like some discussion if possible on what you may be doing. Of course we all want to make sure that our railroads are as safe as possible and no one is suggesting a short cut.

I have seen that some of the Class I's have come up with dedicated shoving platforms - some quite elaborate (I believe this is a CSX shoving platform for a remote control unit http://www.flickr.com/photos/hunter1828/2988999703/).

Also, in our most recent rules class with our DSLE, I found out that a non-trainman flagman would be covered under hours of service (49 CFR 228.7) since according to the law a flagman must be in communication with the train in order to provide flagging protection (49 CFR 218.99), and thus is involved in the movement of a train.

Please share your thoughts, suggestions, and insight.
Author:  Dingo [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
At the Maine Narrow Gauge in Portland Maine our normal operation is push-pull with a caboose equipped with a bell, horn and light. The train slows for a crossing to let the flagman get off and get ahead of the movement. If the flagman has mobility issues, we stop just short of the crossing to let them off.

On rare occassions we just treat the caboose like an engine, ring the bell, blow the crossing signal, and proceed through the crossing. I suppose you could modify your operating rules to allow this. Should not be a big risk on a train with air brakes given the crew on the caboose can dump the air. That and the screaming on the radio should suggest to the engineer they should throttle down and apply the train brake on their end.

For Polar Express we station a flagman permanently at one crossing at the top of a grade so the engine does not have to slow down and risk losing adhesion. This flagman has a radio and reports their time on the Hours of Service report.

We only flag public crossings.
Author:  PaulWWoodring [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
Just want to correct the identification of that piece of CSX equipment. It's not a "shoving platform" - which on CSX is generally an old caboose, usually with the doors welded shut and the windows often blanked out - a term that has to do with how much the conductor gets paid. What is pictured as a shoving platform is a radio control unit that will make any locomotive into an RCO unit. It plugs into the MU connections of a regular D-E loco and allows it to be used like a fully converted remote locomotive, down to the unit being equipped with the FRA required bell, horn and flashing lights. The idea is the same as the old SR remote control boxcars from the '70's, I believe - have all the remote gear in one car and any locomotive can be a DP unit.
Author:  BGRMJames [ Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
We're fortunate to have an ex Central of New Jersey MU Car, which still has some of the original equipment in it. There's a battery (car battery + trickle charger) operated headlights, horn, and bell. We ring the bell and sound the horn when shoving a crossing.

This is biting us a little, as our director won't allow us to pull a caboose until we get a similar light, horn, bell setup. Not a huge thing to work out, but there's so much else to do.

James
Author:  weekendrailroader [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
The Northwest Railway Museum (where I volunteer) has a 1915 Harriman car with an observation platform on one end. The rear brakeman is setup on the platform with a horn, a backup horn, a light, and an emergency brake. Seems to work well enough.
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
Your choices overlook the operations that don't flag on shoving moves. They have a crewman on the back platform with a dumper and a peanut whistle; and/or the engineer blows the horn and they just shove on through.

It's also possible to just stop; wait for traffic to clear; then go.

And then there's beltpacks.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
robertmacdowell wrote:
Your choices overlook the operations that don't flag on shoving moves. They have a crewman on the back platform with a dumper and a peanut whistle; and/or the engineer blows the horn and they just shove on through.
The Museum operation I am involved with has two public crossings with gates. We have a brakeman qualified crewmember on the leading platform on the backup moves. The caboose cars have a dump valve and a ("peanut") whistle; a "tail hose" is used on the passenger cars. The tail hose is as used on the rear end of many a passenger train -- it is connected to the main brake pipe at the glad hand and has a dump valve and a whistle. The crewmember also has a radio to communicate with the engineer the status of the gates, etc.
Author:  junior [ Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
Wilmington & Western has for nearly 45 years, operated their Eastbound trains in this fashion. It's not often that they use a loco on the East end (usually just in the colder weather or consists that exceed steam loco capabilities)

Originally, just a peanut whistle on the dump valve was used, then an automobile horn and lights, but since they early 1990s, their cabooses have had diesel horns attached, usually single chime, and sealed beam headlights. Radio communication is maintained by the breakman and conductor on the rear platform, with the engine crew. Standard dump valve is used if necessary. They operate over MANY public and private grade crossings (2o+ in 10 miles) with most heavier traveled ones having just Crossing lights (mast and overhead), including two very LARGE and BUSY crossings (Rt 48 in Wooddale and Rt 41 which crosses both in Greenbank and in Hockessin). Only 2 crossings have gates, both of which are at their Western most terminus and, somewhat comically, on lightly traveled roads (state law mandates any crossing in DE with 2 tracks MUST have gates, doesn't matter the volume of traffic flow for rail or road. State pays for them).

I don't know of any accidents that they've had in using this operating procedure. There have been near misses, but nothing major. They have had accidents with Locomotives hitting vehicles running the crossing, including hitting a dump truck and throwing it into a ditch, but nothing with cabooses.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
If Amtrak were to reply, I think they would chose "other", crew member on rear with radio and, either backup hose with "peanut" whistle, or car equipped with permanent brake valve and whistle or horn. Flagging, if any, is the same as applies to other trains at that crossing.
Is a grade crossing watchman subject to the Hours of Service regulations?
Author:  JimBoylan [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
Tyburn Railroad chose "other". We use a crew person with a radio, but it's his choice to ride the leading end or get off and flag. We don't use a backup hose because a former president thinks that an emergency brake application can sometimes be worse than a potential crossing collision, so the engineer should make the braking decisions.
Author:  rbarcus [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
If you read the laws to properly flag the crossing, a flagman is required to be in communication with the train (hand signals or radio both constitute communication). Since the flagman is in communication with the train and thus affecting the movement of a train by protecting the shove move, he would therefore fall under Hours of Service.
Author:  RCD [ Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
Most of the time you just move the locomotive to the other side of the train at the end of the line.
Author:  hadder [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
There is no category for 'All of the above'.
Author:  eze240 [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
The typical thing here is to have a crewman on the rear end, with a radio, dump valve, horn and some lights. This has worked quite well for a number of years.
Unfortunately, the local FRA guy seems to have decided that this is bad or wrong somehow- he is new to the job, so, now he wants us to have a proper control cab. the line here has something like 24 crossings in 5 miles and we have hit about 5 cars in the last 10 years- but, all of those were cars running in front of the loco, not during shoving moves.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Push/Pull Operations and Grade Crossings
rbarcus wrote:
If you read the laws to properly flag the crossing, a flagman is required to be in communication with the train (hand signals or radio both constitute communication). Since the flagman is in communication with the train and thus affecting the movement of a train by protecting the shove move, he would therefore fall under Hours of Service.
When the crossing is staffed by a crossing watchman, do you still require a flagman?
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