I have been bitten by the Disney bug and am seeking answers to a myriad of questions about the now defunct Grizzly Flats RR that was operated by Ward Kimball in San Gabriel, CA for many years....

Now that the Emma Nevada, the Chloe, the Carson & Colorado coach and several freight cars from the Grizzly Flats RR have been preserved for many years at OERM, was the Museum ever successful in acquiring Ward Kimball's documentation for the railroad as well? When I say "documentation," I mean the annual and monthly cab cards (from the Nevada Central of course), memos, correspondence, bills of sale, photos, sketches and any other paper documentation for the equipment and the railroad operation. So often the hardware is acquired and the records are forgotten or left behind (or even destroyed by the companies along the way), though I'm sure OERM likely tried to track this material down. Also, was OERM able to acquire the Grizzly Flats depot building in San Gabriel and is any of the track still intact on the Kimball property? And does anybody know if the GFRR used train orders? (Hmm, this begs the question: I wonder if Gerald Best's papers at CSRM have any GFRR documentation? He was actively involved with Kimball for many years). I was just curious--if anybody from OERM might have some answers to my littany of questions I would appreciate hearing from you.

Is Betty Kimball still alive and well?

K.R. Bell

He passed away in 2002. He still has a myspace page at

http://www.myspace.com/wardkimball

It never occurred to me that dead people might have MySpace pages, but I guess it is possible.

You may find even more answers to your questions at the Disney Railroads Discussion Board:

http://burnsland.com/disneyrailroads

Good hunting,

Chris Allan

The Kimballs donated a large library of antique railroad books and records to OERM. I am not completely certain of the contents. This is from our website:

"Large collection of railroad catalogs, textbooks and other paper items from Ward Kimball (see also the Grizzly Flats page). Also miscellaneous blueprints, pounce patterns, drawings, and Central Pacific/SP folio sheets."

John Smatlak will surely have an answer. He spent many a holiday in San Gabriel with Ward and Betty. He could also give you her health status.

Last I heard, the depot (and I believe water tank) were going to Disney/Pixar's John Lasseter, who has Ollie Johnston's Porter "Marie E." and trainset.

Kurt- we did indeed receive a large drawer full of paper items from Ward and Betty when the Emma arrived at OERM, including some drawings and things like the pounce patterns for the artwork. As Corey noted, they later donated a large collection of books as well.

I believe that the technical and service documentation that Ward had on the locomotive was somehwat limited, and I don't recall seeing an original bill of sale (not to say it doesn't still exist somewhere). One thing that did turn up later was a letter that gave a report of the boiler's condition upon inspection at the SP Shops in Los Angeles just prior to being trucked to San Gabriel.

Betty is alive and well and still lives on the property in San Gabriel. The railroad itself is pretty well gone, the rails and ties having been taken up and I believe the depot has actually moved away as well (as noted by another poster).

At OERM, the latest excitement in the Grizzly Flats area is the project to erect the old S.P. narrow gauge Keeler water tank (or more accurately, a replica of it using some original parts). The foundations are being completed at this time, and our 3-foot gauge folks are contemplating their options for raising the needed funds to purchase the needed redwood.

Ward was always keen on the idea of having a turntable, water tower, windmill, etc. as part of the Grizzly Flats "scene" at OERM. Happily the turntable was completed during his lifetime.

More info at: http://www.oerm.org/pages/GF.htm

Everyone,

If you wish to have some of Ward Kimbell's vast collection, They are auctioning off a lot of stuff on Ebay right now.

JD Johnson, Morehead and North Fork Railroad Historian

John, if there is one it would not say Nevada Central or maybe not even have his name on it.

Ward did not purchase NC#2 directly from the railroad. Ward made a presentation at one of the now long-gone Railway Preservation Symposiums at CSRM; I recall him projecting a copy of the canceled check for the locomotive purchase. The check was made out to Gilbert Kneiss who acted as an intermediary with the scraper of the line.

Kneiss had called up Kimball and said some thing to the affect that now that you have the coach, you need a steam locomotive and I know one that you can get for $400.

But that was not the first locomotive that the Kimballs had looked at. Betty told me an interesting story as we watched Dan Markoff's EUREKA being unloaded in Sacramento back in 1991. She told me that she and Ward had seen the EUREKA setting in the engine house of the Hobart Estate Company -- it may have been on their honeymoon trip -- and were "smitten" by the narrow gauge engine. But they had no money to buy it.

Walt & Ward were both bona fide railfans-and Paul Detlefson painted "The Red Caboose". Must be something about animation...

Ross Rowland quoted Disney as once saying, "With a Diesel, it's a train. With a steam locomotive, it's an event." I guess that sums up Walt's perception of the steam locomotive in America's pantheon.

Some interesting history on the Grizzly Flats station.

It was originally built as a set piece for the 1949 Disney movie "So Dear to my Heart"

Ward Kimball was asked by Walt Disney to design the depot for the movie,..and he did. He based the depot on a drawing of the Lehigh Valley Railroad's Pottsville, PA depot..a drawing of which had appeared in
the December 1946 issue of Model Railroader.
Kimball was a known Model Railroader..it is assumed he saw those plans in the 1946 issue of Model Railroader, then, 3 years later, based the design of the Movie set station on those plans..

after the movie was finished, Walt gave the set to Ward, who then used it as the basis for his Grizzly Flats depot...either making the flimsy movie set into a "complete" station..or incorporating parts of the set into the station.

The story goes that Walt asked Ward for the station back when Disneyland was opening..Walt wanted to use it for one of the disneyland stations..Ward said no! So disney built a replica..which is now the "Frontierland" station at Disneyland.

So the "Frontierland" station is also based on the original LV depot.
and there is a third disney station! the more whimsical "toon town" station..so there are actually three disney depots based on the original design..the Grizzly Flats depot, the Frontierland station, and one of the "toon town" depots..(im not sure which one..im not up on my disney railroads)

(im not 100% certain all the above info is absolutely correct!
there is conflicting info out there..)

The Grizzly Flats version went on to be much more famous than the LV station that inspired it! which isnt surprising..

I have been looking, for years, for photos of the original LV Pottsville depot..(which no longer exists) havent found one yet.
we only have the drawing.

Here is my research from 2004:

http://tinyurl.com/2wnydk

http://tinyurl.com/2vxq4s

http://tinyurl.com/2zy7s3

I have been meaning to gather all that data into a webpage..
I should work on that.
as a LV fan, I would like to get all these conflicting details straight!
about the various disney stations and all that..

I think I will start on that page! :)
I have been wanting to do it for years anyway..
stay tuned..

Scot

There was an exhibit on Walt Disney and trains at the California State railroad Museum a few years ago.

I do not recall the details vividly; but his live steam locomotive was on display and next to it was the screen for his 16mm (What else) home movies of the locomotive running around the yard. I recall that the layout had to be planned so it would miss the rose bushes which his wife loved.

Lots of details in the book mentioned above. I would have to say the Walt dieney was definately a rail fan!

But like a lot of busy executives he did not have a lot of time to devote to his interest. There are pictures of him visiting the Grizzley Flats Railroad, which started this thread.

So he made the railroad part of Disneyland from the earliest designs. The Santa Fe was the corperate sponsor for some years. One of the locomotives at one time carries the name E.P. Rupley, president of the company. And he followed it with an even larger narrow gauge layout at Disney World in Florida.

He passed away before the new park opened so I do not know if he ever rode the Florida loop.

Now of course they were followed by the Parks in Paris and Tokeo. I do not know if the new park in China (Peking?) will have a train ride. Let's hope so!

Ted Miles

Many thanks to John, Brian, Bernie et al., for responding to my query.

Ward Kimball discovered his Grizzly Flats station in a book in his personal library titled Buildings and Structures of American Railroads by Walter G. Berg, published by John Wiley & Sons in 1893. On pgs. 266-267, it lists a "frame flag-depot, Pottsville Branch, Lehigh Valley Railroad," and includes a front elevation, an end elevation and a ground, or floor, plan, designed by Mr. F.E. Schall of the LVRR. An original copy of this book exists in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania Library where I am the Archivist.

Ward himself relayed this story to Bob Kredel in his article, "In Profile: Ward and Betty Kimball - Pioneers in Preservation," published in Locomotive & Railway Preservation 52 (May-June 1995), pg. 32.

Drawings of the Grizzly Flats depot also appeared in Railroad Modeler, v. 3 n. 7 (July 1973), pg. 23.

Also see a recently released DVD from the Walt Disney Treasures series, "Your Host Walt Disney, TV Memories 1956-1965" (Buena Vista Home Entertainment, Inc.), which includes a 1956 episode titled "Where The Ideas Come From" that features some superb b&w and color footage of Ward Kimball acquiring and moving Emma Nevada to San Gabriel, laying track, fixing up and running trains on his backyard narrow gauge pike in the 30's, 40's and 50's, as well as scenes of Walt Disney building and operating his Carolwood Pacific RR. It features scenes of anamator Ollie Johnson running his live steam B&O-inspired Pacific and actor Kirk Douglas running Disney's Lilly Belle on the Carolwood Pacific.

I wonder if the check and correspondence documenting Emma Nevada's acquisition might have ended up in the R&LHS Archives in Sacramento, since Gilbert Kneiss was a major figure in the R&LHS?

K.R. Bell

Lots of talk on this thread about the Grizzly Flats depot. Anyone got a good photo or two of the structure?

Les

Link to a page about it:
http://www.gfrr.com/1intro.html
And a couple photos: