I see so many people on here from so many differnt groups, I was hoping to gather a pool of opinions on what it would be like to start a group in these times, in this economy.
Where do I start?
For profit? Non Profit? Pro's/Con's. I see almost everyone is doing non-profit.
What do you incorperate as? Are their grants for these type programs? Where do you pick a location? How do you get your first equipment, how do you rent/lease equipment. Is their any hope these days to sharing a line with a Calss 1 Railroad or a local shortline? When I first started kicking this idea around a few years ago, UP had an adandoned line nearby, but they ripped that up last year. Iowa Interstate has a nice branch line that runs by the river, and the Peoria Tazwell and Pekin shortline has a nice run along the river as well.
How can 261 be a for profit outfit and can run mainline steam, while it seems everyone else has nightmares with the big guys about moving anything? I love the setup that TVRM has, but it's the only one I'm familiar with after volunteering there for a few years. Little short line to run daily trips back and forth for the tourists, yet the ability to make a 100 mile trip for the real rail fans. Yet I remember all the grief NS gave them for moving through downtown chattanoga, and CSX gave them for moving the train to the new Copperhil branch, and now their shortline partner is on the verge of going under and they risk loosing use of that track. Yet I feel bad for little land-locked railroads that can't do more than 10miles or so.
I'm sorry if I am asking to many questions, When was the last time a railroad museum was made from thin air, and can it even be done these days? If so, how would you do it, and for those that have/are doing it, if you could do it over again, what would would you change/ do differently?
Thanks for all the thoughts
Brian

I have always dreamed of doing something like this and would love to hear some responses. Also I did not know that the C&C was about to go under? I thought they were in the process of actually upgrading their track?

Jamie

Since the Peoria Tazwell and Pekin does not exist, I assume you are referring to the Tazewell & Peoria, formerly the Peoria & Pekin Union, a switching and terminal road.
Other than paralleling the waterway thru heavily industrialized areas, where does the T&P have "a nice run" along the Illinois River?

Jim Tatum.

Step 1: Develop a business plan:

Identify your potential audiences and how to attract them. What will your visitor's experience consist of? Excursion? Exhibits? Clean restrooms? Gift shop? Food? Asses the equipment and infrastructure you're starting with (track, right of way, building conditions) and what you need to construct and improve upon to make the operation viable and sustainable. How much money will that take? Identify funding and income sources, short and long term. Weigh profit vs. non-profit status, if that hasn't been decided.

I would add even before the business plan:

#1: Develop a mission/mission statement.

Although the term has become a cliche of vacuous bad management (management by sound bite instead of mission), in the case of any museum or excursion railroad, a viable and concrete objective has to be in place. Examples:

Strasburg Railroad, 1958: acquire a shortline and operate it as a tourist railroad for profit and glory.
Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, 1960's and California State RR Museum, 1970's: Establish a state-operated/administrated museum dedicated to the history of railroading in the respective states.
Any number of station museums across the world: Establish a local history or railroading museum in the local station building.
Grand Canyon Railroad, 1980s: Take this railroad that you got stuck with in an abortive business deal, and establish upon it a for-profit tourism and transportation business tied in to the Grand Canyon National Park.
Maryland & Pennsylvania RR Preservation Society: acquire and preserve a stretch of surviving original Ma & Pa railroad line, and assemble relevant RR equipment upon it; add in an adjacent mill village and general store/station.
Steve Sandberg/Friends of 261: Restore and operate (and eventually acquire outright) a mainline-friendly major passenger steam locomotive to keep mainline steam alive.
SMS Services: Acquire and preserve Baldwin diesel locomotives, and hopefully make your crazy passion pay for itself (or at least come close) by using said locomotives commercially in contracted switching services (and maybe some creative accounting and lottery winnings, who knows?).

The mission should be simple and straightforward and focused. If your mission is to save a local short line or station, for example, you need to focus on that first, not debate the merits of Alco/MLW versus Baldwin versus EMD or whether to promote passenger service over freight. If your mission is to preserve Baldwin locomotives or a specific CNJ steam locomotive or an Alco PA, you figure out the rest of the logistics around that mission.

Your business plan SHOULD be substantially different if you're, for example, trying to save Santa Fe rolling stock and infrastructure on the ex-Santa Fe line to the Grand Canyon than it would be if you want to make said line as profitable and self-sustaining as possible, or save the rail corridor for future Amtrak or light-rail trains. But nothing says that the missions have to be mutually exclusive, either.

Your mission can change over time. For example, the B&O Museum in Baltimore started as a museum operated by a for-profit railroad dedicated to railroading in general, to justify the company keeping a few old buildings and rolling stock. Over the decades, the mission has focused to preserving almost exclusively the B&O Railroad (and sister affiliates), not railroading as a whole (thus the jettisoning of their GG1 and South Shore relics). Similarly, the Baltimore Streetcar Museum found itself in a position to expand its mission from its very narrow focus on exclusively Baltimore transit history when a Philadelphia group proposed acquisition and preservation of several Philadelphia traction pieces at the BSM. I'm not sure Sandberg set out to actually own MILW 261, but......

Sorry, I guess it's Tazewell & Peoria, plus the Genesee & Wyoming that would make a run from Peoria to Havanna "along" the river.
And all I am looking at is a map, I know nothing about their operations and route conditions.
However, I know TVRM has some ugly rightaway getting out of Chattanoga before getting to the open coutryside as well.

"Since the Peoria Tazwell and Pekin does not exist, I assume you are referring to the Tazewell & Peoria, formerly the Peoria & Pekin Union, a switching and terminal road.
Other than paralleling the waterway thru heavily industrialized areas, where does the T&P have "a nice run" along the Illinois River?

Jim Tatum.[/quote]

From what I have found on here, it sounds like the C&C is finally getting funds to repair their track and resume full operations. I had just heard talk that they might never come up with enough money to get their track repaired.

Thanks for all the replys so far.
I would say my mission statement would be to provide a steam train experience in the midwest.
First though would to be provide any type of train ride for any distance over any length of track and on any equipment.
I also like the idea of a dinner train, but their sucess seems to hit or miss.

Okay, that's the "what."

Now answer the "why." And the "where." And, in lieu of the "who," I ask: with what equipment for what reasons, whit whose money? Who would ride, and why?

In short: what would make this proposed steam train experience different from other available such experiences in the Midwest? Or, for that matter, whatever "train ride" you end up provising?

There are already steam trains to be ridden in the midwest. What would set yours apart and make it different in a way that would intrigue and attract visitors more than the others already filling your chosen market?

OK, on to: context and story. You need to develop a "brand", or personality that will define and control all the choices that create whatever experience your visitors will have during their visit. Assume you are creating a movie in 3 dimensions and your visitors will be characters. What story will they take part in and what will they see, smell, touch, hear, etc that will either reinforce the story being lived or distract from it? If you do this well, it will answer the question I asked up top.

So, start with the "movie" you want to make - then build a mission statement and business plan to test it for potential reality.

I'd very heartily encourage you to consider locations in proximity to other clusters of attractions, with good highway and public transport access no matter what you choose to do. Making visiting a long, hard logistical experience will weed out a lot of potential audience. And clean restrooms, which are sort of an attraction all their own.....

dave

Well, unless I am missing something nearby steam is Silver Creek, Boone, and IRM. Am I missing anyone? Silver Creek has all of 1.72 miles of track. Boone and IRM is 3 hours away. IRM doesn't seem to have a steam program this year.
I can't say how my idea would be different from all the others out there, other than my goal would be to have enough room for a real excusion. When I look to go visit a museum, I'm not making the trip unless it can give me at the very least a half day expereince, or it's something very rare, otherwise it's not really worth the drive.
I'm not commitied to Peoria per say, but that is the biggest city near me. I look at so many of these train rides, and they are way out in the middle of no where.
I would be interested in possibly setting up something in Galesburg, and trying to tie it in with Galesburg's push to becoming a railroad mecca.
I don't know where I would get money or equipment, or anything else, that is why I made this thread to ask you guys.
I did see a complete dinner train with f7's for sale for like $125,000 a while back.

[quote="Unseenthings"] <snip>
I would be interested in possibly setting up something in Galesburg, and trying to tie it in with Galesburg's push to becoming a railroad mecca. <snip>

Well, I hate to burst your bubble about Galesburg, but it already is a railroad "mecca", with two very busy BNSF mainline routes and a large freight yard. The only passenger facility there is on the former BN mainline, which already hosts eight daily Amtrak trains, so the chances of operating a tourist train out of Galesburg are nil.

As for the Genesee & Wyoming-owned Illinois & Midland line from Powerton to Havana, that's pretty busy with coal trains and certainly not what one could call scenic. It's only encounter with the Illinois River is at the rail/barge coal facility in Havana. I doubt that G&W would be receptive to a tourist operation on the I&M, altho after acquiring the Chattooga & Chickamauga, they have allowed TVRM to continue running over the C&C. TVRM's proven record of performance probably had a lot to do with G&W's cooperation.

Jim Tatum.

I had dreamy ideas like yours one day, but investigation realized the limits of what I could do in a market that was already pretty saturated. Peoria already has several railroad attractions, perhaps you should consider joining your youthful energy to one of their projects?

Probably the leading project is (or was) the Illinois Prairie Railroad Foundation. Ten years ago they were going to have a diner on a turntable with the kitchen in a gutted E Unit, hoping to represent the Rock Island Rocket. An 18" gauge train was going to operate from the turntable park in Peoria. Last I heard this group is dormant due to difficulty working with fluctuating forces in city government, but here is their website:
http://friends.peoria.lib.il.us/community/iprrf.html

Then you have the Wheels of Time Museum and their static displays:
http://wheelsotime.org/

But perhaps your best option is the 2' gauge railroad at the Wildlife Prairie State Park?
http://www.wildlifeprairiestatepark.com/visit-todo-train.cfm
There are a number of two footer German and Welsh locomotives that are not currently in operation in the US, some of them are even available and perhaps others might be with careful requesting. From what I understand this ride is fairly scenic.

It would take any new start-up museum at least 3-5 years before it comes to fruition. By that time Monticello and IRM both will be operating at least one steam locomotive each.
O.

NOT railroad attractions - other various attractions that bring bulk people looking for things to do to near you.

You want a long excursion - OK, fine - but what is the rationale for running that train and where does it go? Hogwarts? Orient Express?

Think about who rides and why and when between what destinations during what time in history that would make people want to experience it - the more specific, the better.

You need to stop looking at it from the perspective of somebody that would ride any train because you love the experience, and think about what would bring in people in mass that don't care whether it is a train, theme park, reconstructed village, whatever. Your tastes are immeterial - railfan's tastes even more immeterial.

"I want to recreate the exprience passengers would have had having dinner in the diner on the 1927 Twentieth Century Limited between Crestline and Ashtabula, complete with authentic reproducton tableware, menues, reproduction rolling stock, an identical wine list, and cigars for the men in the smoker afterwards. This luxury romantic experience would be operated during a 4 hour evening from 7 until 11 PM on weekend nights on the HPT&D Buckeye Subdivision when there is no freight on that line. Passengers will be encouraged to dress and act in a period appropriate manner. Period music will be provided by a reproduction of a live musical group of the era at the terminal before and after the train departs and arrives. Passengers will be made to feel as if they were wealthy travellers on a luxury rail cruise as if it actually was 1927."

Now, this is huge and never existed, but you need to start with your vision of something like this that will grab investors and gain public support and patronage.


Grab some brains and start storming.

dave

Mebbe we should get Mr. Andy Muller of Reading Northern / Blue Mountain and Reading ( PA ) to post in response. Hmmm, 140 miles of owned or trackage right iron. Some respectable scenery. Accessibility out the gazoo...interstates right up to the door... 25 % of the population, and the densest part of it, a day's drive away or less. It worked for a while, and in grand style, short 2 hour hops, all day Rambles a la Reading Iron Horse...no one to ask permission or interference with the freight schedule...the perfect 12 inches to the foot rail kingdom. Today however, Coaches nearly rust to the rail, motive power won't see the light outside the engine house in the near future. ( OK the 4 and a quarter did get some running last fall. )

So, how come ?

Is it that 98 % of the Joe and Jane Does in America wouldn't ride any train, no matter how convenient, even if you almost gave them a ticket ? Is the pie too small ? Are we trying to slice it too thin ? Sounds like J.P. Morgan in the salon of the Corsair on Long Island Sound, with the bad boys of the South Penn / West Shore affair as a captive audience. History does repeat itself. Mebbe it just isn't a good time to be in the Chooch business...New or Old ?

I think the days of operating a long generic train ride and paying the bills are almost gone. Located well, you can operate a short one, impulse priced and not a lot of time commitment or logistical problems in getting to it (think Strasburg) and do OK. The longer ones that still can pay the bills are places like D&S or Grand Canyon where the train is just being a train, an integral but not solitary part of the entertainment experience "bundle" offered to the traveller.

19th century museum: Stuff to look at, maybe touch, and little cards with captions.

20th century museum: stuff protected from visitor contact more, evolving into the Book on the Wall, slides, film, multi media, basic interactive under controlled conditions.

21st century museum: doing in real life what your visitors are already experiencing virtually in the digital world, although subservient to the Laws of Physics.

The bar is being raised and we have to rise with it.

dave