does anybody know when she is to leave duryea and arrive in jim thorpe, i would like to take my friends 2 year old kid to see 425 he is in love with all sorts of trains, especially 425 after he rode behind her last year.
thanks Matt

Hmm, after checking on reading/northern's website, I looked on "endless mountain rails" website for the info, and the most I found was this:

"Shuttle buses to the excursion boarding site begin leaving from the Hilton
Hotel and Convention Center at 6:30am. The last bus will depart at
7:00am. We expect to arrive back in Scranton between 6:00 - 7:00 PM."

As noted by my earlier thread, the NRHS Convention committee believes, and has openly stated in their FAQ section, that the Convention is run solely for the benefit of paying registered attendees, and that you, the public, don't matter and are actively discouraged from going out to see said trains.

I've gotten PMs from Convention folk saying "we don't want chasers." Apparently you and your friend's kid qualify as "chasers."

guess that means i will just have to wait for it in jim thorpe.

I support the convention organizers' communication strategy. I saw your Facebook post in the same topic, Sandy. I am not sure why you feel entitled to info about a private excursion?

As a person who has dealt with the whole question of "chasers" in their various stripes please allow me to vent!

With VERY rare exceptions chasers are just that, and at least the ones I've known over the last 45 years or so RARELY contribute any hard cash towards sustaining the active life of the engine they're madly following!! There are exceptions, but they are FAR AND FEW BETWEEN!!!

I can fully understand and do strongly support the NRHS's stand that the trips are for the enjoyment of thems paying the freight....not the freeloaders.

Matter of fact should I be in the position of laying out any future mainline trips I'll be sure to publish false photo run-by locations and keep the real ones in my shirt pocket 'till we get to them, and if humanly possible make sure the real ones are where you can only get there via rail!!

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Good call guys. For a second there I thought we might have a new 2 year old railfan on our hands. Crisis averted!

I understand wanting to keep runbys and special photo sessions private. But chasers are going to chase. They just have to show up in the morning, and wait until the train leaves. I'm not sure how stating when the train arrives is considered chasing. By that time, the trip is over anyways.

I think it's interesting to compare the different philosophies of the NRHS and the people who did TrainFest last year. NRHS: "You can't know anything - you didn't pay". TrainFest: "Here's all the information possible, including our Twitter account of live updates and a webpage to watch a GPS representation of the train." Granted, there were some people upset about the lack of riders on the 4449 trip, but I guarantee it raised more interest in trains than the NRHS has done in the last...... 16 or so years. In another 16 or so years we'll probably see which philosophy was correct.

Also, the reason I didn't chime in the other thread is because it deviated into a "should somebody join a group to present".

Let me emphasize two things:

1) They sold out. The old "chasers cut into our ticket sales" spiel does NOT apply in this case.

2) The original poster said NOTHING about "crashing" a photo runby. He specifically stated "i would like to take my friends 2 year old kid to see 425 he is in love with all sorts of trains, especially 425 after he rode behind her last year."
Past "paying" customer (*someone* hadd to pay for him to get to ride). Future donor, steam mechanic, locomotive owner, or restoration grunt, IF you play it right. Saying, in effect, "go away, kid" isn't "playing it right."

In addition:
Major railroads such as CSX (mentioned here a lot in the past week) and minor ones such as the Reading & Northern have NO obligation to interface with the public.

The same CANNOT be said for "historic preservation" organizations such as Steamtown, the RR Museum of Pennsylvania, the station museum at Mt. Pocono, the Stourbridge Line, the WK&S, the Reading Co. T&HS collection, or even private operations like the East Broad Top or the Strasburg Rail Road. Without positive public relations and outreach to the public (either in pursuit of spending dollars, donations, or education), such operations are doomed to extinction absent some huge "sugar daddy" or endowment, and fundamentally have no reason to exist.

The NRHS and its Convention committee is acting like a private country club. And there's no big, fat endowment, trust me.

The other example that has been raised is a group that raised lots of donations and grants as a non-profit to restore a private car to "original elegance" and "historic" appearance--and then doesn't let the car ever see the light of day aside from $500-2000 per person charters whose operations are kept "secret" save for a fairly exclusive mailing list. (Actually, that might describe more than one group, come to think of it. And since some complaints got aired, the group let the car get shown at at least one National Train Day event, I'm told.....)

Oh, and one final note: I've gotten quite a few photos and videos so far of 2010 Convention activities from non-members (at least I *think* they're not members)........... more and better than the NRHS itself has managed to put up at its own "Convention Status" pages at the national NRHS website. How's this, aside from the fact that Ed "Oh, Well" needs to edit three minutes of dead screen from the end? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZpzDw7aKec

Having been a railfan for nearly the entire 27 years of my life, I can understand both opinions. With that said, I enjoy riding behind steam, I don't understand why some people prefer to only photograph and not ride, but that is their right. I enjoy riding in the open vestibule of a passenger car and getting filthy with cinders covering my hair (but have learned with coal burning steam locomotives) to bring goggles with me to avoid getting any cinders in my eye which is a painful experience, especially from a behemoth like Norfolk & Western 1218.

With that said, I also like to photograph trains as well and while I get to take photos of the steam locomotive prior to departure and during the layover point, for a rider it is difficult to get any action shots of the steam locomotive while riding the train. Photo runbys are becoming fewer and farer in between these days. For example when I first started riding the Tennessee Valley Railroad Musuem's excursions on the Chattooga and Chickamauga in 1995, they had a handful of photo runbys, but the last time I ran a trip behind TVRM 610 in October 2008, there were no photo runbys so I only had the opportunity to photograph the engine before departing the museum's Grand Junction station and during the layover in Summerville, Georgia. I made the choice to ride and I know that photo runbys are subject to cancellation because of rain delays, the train running behind schedule, etc, etc. I agree with suggestions that "chasers" consider making a donation to the organization operating the excursion, but nobody can force them to.

If getting to a photo location requires a chaser to go on a private road or someone's driveway then yes I agree that the owner of that property or the operator of the excursion has a right to say "get off the property" just as a railroad would do for an unwanted railfan trespassing in their yard. If an excursion sells out I don't see the problem with chasers, but if an excursion does not sell out I wouldn't only place blame on the chasers, I would look at the ticket prices, what kind of marketing and communication was done to advertise the excursion and look at whether the destination was a good choice or not.

This is one of the most vexing problems in operating preservation and a great many other enterprises.

When there are benefits that result from producing something can't be limited to paying customers, i.e., are non-rivalrous (your consumption doesn't reduce the amount available to others) and non-excludable (you can't limit the consumption to specific people-who pay) -economists refer to this as "spillover benefits (or costs)" or "externalities". There can be positive externalities (goods) or negative externalities (bads or costs, such as pollution). The existence of externalities creates what's referred to as "public goods" because of the "free rider problem". The late Paul A. Samuelson is usually credited as the first economist to develop the theory of public goods in his classic 1954 paper The Pure Theory of Public Expenditure.

With public excursions, there is the private good; the ride. You can clearly exclude those who hold no ticket, and two bu**s can't occupy the same seat. Problem solved.

However, the operation of a public excursion also creates a valuable visual display. Most railroads are in close proximity to easily accessible land not owned by the railroad-so its non-excludable and practically non-rivalrous.

I totally understand the attempt to confine the schedules to paying customers-however based on the THOUSANDS of cameras and video recorders I observed wayside going from Scranton to the Delaware Water Gap on Thursday, it seemed like something of an open secret. I suspect non-disclosure will become increasingly difficult with the ever increasing proliferation of pervasive electronic and increasingly mobile communications. This makes the concept of a secret among a group of people being durable only when all but one are dead even more true than it was in the past.

Conclusion: there will be always "free riders" , or in this case non-riders we can't get $$ from.

There are two other questions; one does free information discourage ticket buying ridership? Probably not significantly, and having "runbys" functions to encourage those want both a ride and a good picture to buy a ticket.

The second question is about "negative externalities", i.e., when free riders become trespassers, creating liability for the operators and their partners. On Thursday, most of the vast majority of folks taking looking or taking pictures presented no problem other than not paying. However, I observed the usual scores of dimwits putting themselves in harm's way as they sought the perfect shot at the potential cost of their physical well-being. Of course they taking the waiving, yelling and whistle blowing of train crews as an undeserved insult (It's OK, I'm a railfan) when they weren't seemingly oblivious to it.

The cruel calculus is that vintage/passenger equipment draws more and crazier FRN's than an ordinary freight train, requires more intense and planned operations, presents greater risks-the negative externality of risk in the form of the litigation peril. and less revenue.

Yes, its great if a passing train becomes the gateway to the next generation, but I think on the order of priorities, as we know operating safely is job one. Perhaps you can't limit the non-paying gawker, but you don't have to invite them. Even when every last seat is sold, there's no good reason to invite non-payers.

Its up to us to "evangelize" the next generation, not hoping that the increasingly infrequent passenger train somehow captures the imagination of the tot in your life. I can't speak for other organizations, but Steamtown doesn't have public outreach, IT IS public outreach. You can see, smell, touch (to the extent possible) hear and experience steam and vintage equipment, running, getting prepped, restored, spinning on the turntable and interacting with crews. If that doesn't entice and inspire junior, watching a train go by will not.

True, this poster presented bona fides I'm sympathetic too- but all of the above still applies, especially since RYPN isn't exactly whispering in an ear, it's shouting in a public square.

well my friends and i went to jim thorpe their little kid is happy again and i also chased it to port clinton, that being said, to clarify some things, i actually pay to ride the train more than the cheap lgsr trips with 425, i believe that if i want to continue to chase her i also have to help support her, i rode twice in 08 and the one trip Ross Rowland was on (railfan trip) last year i paid the 250 just so i could ride in the cab, i would love to ride every trip but don't have that kind of money right now(dam powerball) i am only 28 years old and my parents are responsible for my love of steam trains, i have some good photos of the freedom train becoming chessie steam special in the saucon creek roundhouse. say what you want about me but where there's a will there's a way, i hope 425 is around for a great while.

I've ridden them, ridden along with chasers, and worked on them - and the greatest enjoyment I have ever had was by working on them. Chasing came in slightly ahead of riding, but primarily due to the people I was with. Riding actually insulates you from the experience unless you are riding in a vestibule just behind the tender. Maybe riding isn't as marketable as chasing? I'd pay more to work on them than just passively ride by a long shot, and I'm not a photographer apart from documentary stuff and occasional snapshots for mnemonics.

dave

I agree Dave. I prefer photo charters as you get the trackside seat. I rode at WV Rails today because it was an event to enjoy with my son.

Yes, I understand the other side of the coin about folks just coming out to see the train, but for heaven's sake. You had a ballpark departure time, and the rest is pretty easy from there. The 2 year old is important, of course, as are all the folks the train could impress, but the answers are there with a little legwork.

As for rail fans, I don't chase freights as much as I used to, but when I do I get what info I can, crank up the scanner and go. Why should a fan trip prove harder?

In the end the 2 year old saw the train and ozzman got his chase. So obviously, the convention's stance did not prevent any desired activity.


Rob

Just a thought (and you can say I'm full of hooey if you like), but what about turning the chasers into a revenue source? I'm thinking of a package of maps, schedules, and so on to direct the chasers to safe, public locations for their photos, with appropriate safety tips included. I'm thinking of a minimal cost package, say $5.00 or so; this could be used for regularly scheduled operations (such as the Strasburg) as well as the specials.

The only potential objection that might arise, and it's potentially a serious one, is the question of liability if some fool follows the map but doesn't follow good sense or the safety instructions.

Any thoughts?

Chaser packs have been offered but seem to have fallen out of favor.