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| TVRM/NS Steam https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29812 |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | TVRM/NS Steam |
A while back I posted a question asking the status of TVRM's 610 and 630's restoration and never got a response. As best I can tell 610 is still running which I'm glad to hear as I plan on visiting Chattanooga and the museum next weekend. With the announcement of the partnership with NS for a steam program I am curious though what the plan is to get the engines up and running. 610 is on borrowed time, 630 appears to have a ways to go before completion, 4501 has yet to go into the shop. Givin that 630's restoration has taken what?...5 years or more? How is it that they plan on having all 3 rebuilt by next year? I would think at least 2 engines need to be operating one for the museum while the other is on NS. We all know that steam restorations take years to complete, yet the impression is being givin that by next year 4501, 630 and 610 will all be running. I'm not criticising TVRM or anyone else. They appear to be one of the premier museums in the country. However, given that the 630 rebuild is way over schedule it seems to me that they like most museums barely have the funds and manpower to handle their own operations much less a separate mainline excursion program....nothing wrong with that, just an observation. I suppose my question here is how is all this supposed to come about? Is NS going to throw a massive amount of money at the the museum to hire contractors, etc. to pull it off? Even with a paid staff working 3 shifts a day starting now, is it feasable to have 3 engines running by 2011? |
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| Author: | Unseenthings [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
It's been hashed out over and over and over. 630 is being put back together 610 will most likely just need new tubes 4501 needs tubes and some patching. Read all about it here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29768 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29699 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29716 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29064 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28739&p=135536&hilit=630#p135536 |
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| Author: | John Risley [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
"It's been hashed out over and over and over. 630 is being put back together 610 will most likely just need new tubes 4501 needs tubes and some patching." Well I thought the original question was pretty legit. From my experiences when you tear into a locomotive you are apt to find many surprises. No doubt the TVRM leadership and crews know all about this too. I hope your appraisal of the work needed turns out so simple. I also doubt the TVRM would "hash" out all the details on the public Internet {Thanks Al Gore} as it would just not be a wise thing to do. I too think it is a great plan and surely hope to see this all happen, but in my mind I would like to see "how" it is going to get done so quickly. Not trying to be negative, just know that surprises turn up in repair/restoration and even two locomotives in supposedly decent shape can have Mr. Murphy in the shadows. Lots of possibilities and certainly never say never. There are a small number of contractors out there that could get involved and it could happen if the stars would be aligned just so! Cheers, John. |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
I've read those posts and I guess what I'm wondering is the action plan and timeline of how all this is going to take place. I'm sure that may be confidential at this point. 610 is a very worn out engine. A volunteer told me that a few years ago. It's been running for over 20 years now. A part 230 inspection and flu job might get her back on the road after a few months down, but the prudent thing to do would be a full re-build including boiler, running gear, and appliance work. 4501 is definitely worn out. She was having major running gear problems back in '93 and '94 so much so that she missed the majority of her '94 NS excursions. TVRM nursed her along until 1998 or so but TVRM and C&C trips were a far cry from 40mph running on the NS mainline. Take a worn out engine and store it out of service outdoors for a decade and I'm willing to bet that it needs a whole lot more than than tubes and some patch work. Even if you assume these NS trips don't really ramp up until next fall, lets say October 2011 you are talking about 14 months....less than 5 months per engine. It usually takes longer than that to do routine winter maintenance on a fully operating engine, much less a part 230 inspection and/or complete rebuild. |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
John, I missed reading your post before I hit submit, but you spelled out my original question better than I did. I'm afraid my posts are coming off as being too pessimistic or calling quetioning the legitimacy of the plans. That's not the case. What I do know is that 3 steam locomotives in and out of the shop restored to mainline running condition by a financially strapped museum a year's time is incredibly optimistic and I'm very interested in how it's going to be pulled off. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
Divide and conquer. dave |
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| Author: | Kevin Gilliam [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
Steamguy wrote: John, I missed reading your post before I hit submit, but you spelled out my original question better than I did. I'm afraid my posts are coming off as being too pessimistic or calling quetioning the legitimacy of the plans. That's not the case. What I do know is that 3 steam locomotives in and out of the shop restored to mainline running condition by a financially strapped museum a year's time is incredibly optimistic and I'm very interested in how it's going to be pulled off. well, considering this is NS' party now, I would guess they will be contributing at least some amount of money, so funding is probably taken care of. TVRM isn't be doing this by themselves, or they would have done it some time ago. Just as a guess on my part, the timeline would go something like this... 630 -- finish and get it ready for the fall. Given the scope of the restoration, I think it's safe to say she will be almost a new steam engine when she comes out, and will be ready for many years of reliable service. That means only limited work will need to be done on her between seasons, freeing up both people and money for other projects. 610 -- do 1472 inspection over the winter. I'll guess TVRM has at least a good idea what needs to be done over and beyond what is absolutely required. They could theoretically do what is needed to keep her running for backup purposes, since most likely 630 would be at the museum for the vast majority of the time, which would reduce the wear and tear on 610. The scope of the NS plans would theoretically affect this. 4501 is the big question. You can either do what is needed to get her running for a year and do a bigger teardown to fix more things at the end of 2011 (presuming the steam program keeps going)....or just divert more money and people towards the rebuilding while she is torn apart to begin with, so that she is good to go for a while when she comes out. Both plans have advantages and disadvantages, though I would think 4501 would be preferable for long distance trips if the mentioned system-wide tour happens, which would lean towards a thorough rebuilding the first time while she is down for work. Outside contract work is also an option, which would dramatically increase the work performed and budget simultaneously. Now, as to whether TVRM has enough manpower to do this by themselves, or whether people will be hired, who knows. If operations expand beyond Chattanooga next year, you could theoretically have at various times one engine/crew on the road, one engine/crew running TVRM trips, and presumably another crew working on 4501. With the work 4501 needs, she would probably need a dedicated crew to make a 2011 steamup. One must also remember that NS has supposedly purchased additional passenger cars, so someone will have to spend time and money to get them painted and in service. No idea where this is being done. It's a tall order, and certainly not impossible, but anybody who knows the detailed plan isn't talking at the moment. All it requires is manpower, time and money. Presumably, we will know more in the coming months once the website and more information on the planned operations are announced. Kevin |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
I think the lesson learned several times in the steam restoration field is do it right the first time. When it's torn down do whatever it takes to return it to as built or better than it was when it left the builder. Do the minimum to make it road worthy and you end up with a problematic engine back in the shop within a few years needing perhaps more work than it did the first time around. The days of making sure it holds water and won't blow up followed by a fresh coat of paint are over especially when you are talking about a 100 year old locomotive that's expected to hold her own on a class 1 railroad. I'm by no means an expert, but it seems alot of people think you are going to roll 4501 inside, do a tube job, thow the jacket and paint on, light her up and go play choo choo train. It just does't work that way. The only way I see 4501 running in 2011 is through a dedicated/experienced crew working multple shifts 7 days a week and even that might be pushing it depending on how much specialty fabrication work needs to be farmed out to an outside vendor. Union Pacific has a state of the art steam shop, a full time highly experienced crew and very deep pockets, yet the most recent work on 844 took about 6 years....get the picture? |
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| Author: | Kevin Gilliam [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
Steamguy wrote: I think the lesson learned several times in the steam restoration field is do it right the first time. When it's torn down do whatever it takes to return it to as built or better than it was when it left the builder. Do the minimum to make it road worthy and you end up with a problematic engine back in the shop within a few years needing perhaps more work than it did the first time around. The days of making sure it holds water and won't blow up followed by a fresh coat of paint are over especially when you are talking about a 100 year old locomotive that's expected to hold her own on a class 1 railroad. I'm by no means an expert, but it seems alot of people think you are going to roll 4501 inside, do a tube job, thow the jacket and paint on, light her up and go play choo choo train. It just does't work that way. The only way I see 4501 running in 2011 is through a dedicated/experienced crew working multple shifts 7 days a week and even that might be pushing it depending on how much specialty fabrication work needs to be farmed out to an outside vendor. Agreed 100%. TVRM has a considerable task in front of them to get 4501 to a point that they and NS would be willing to let it out on the mainline. I think we can all agree that NS trusts the ability of the TVRM shop, as they would never align themselves with the TVRM otherwise. At the same time, a full restoration on the order of what has been done to 630 from the current situation of 4501 to under steam in one year is virtually impossible. Getting the engine to a trustable roadworthy condition (which I expect nothing less) will be difficult. So, they will have to come to a middle ground in there somewhere between roadworthy and a new steam engine. It will be very interesting to see how it is accomplished--and how extensive the restoration is compared to what was done in the late 80s/early 90s to get 4501 into service for the 25th Anniversary of NS Steam. Steamguy wrote: Union Pacific has a state of the art steam shop, a full time highly experienced crew and very deep pockets, yet the most recent work on 844 took about 6 years....get the picture? It seems to me that restoration times have ballooned in recent years for one reason or another. With how long steam restorations are taking these days, I wonder whether it's a case of people/money, older equipment, more strict guidelines, inability to do all work in-house, extent of work performed to minimize issues down the road, or a combination of the above? The restorations are certainly becoming more thorough these days, as evidenced by the rebuilding of 630, 765, etc. It is certainly easier and cheaper to repair something when you have the engine already torn down than to leave it, and have to tear it down again at some point to fix the problem. The FRA rules have certainly made a dent in the number of operational engines, but plenty of railroads have kept steam running almost continuously. The Georgia Agrirama took their 0-4-0T down for a 1472 inspection and had it back up in one month, so the FRA rules are obviously not an end-all-be-all by themselves if the money and manpower is available. On the subject of mainline steam restorations, if one thinks back a few years, the 611 went from a cold shell to under steam in one year. Without exact dates, it appears C&O 2716 took roughly the same amount of time. 1218, which was in much worse shape than 844, took 2 years. Of course, the Irondale shop was able to do most--if not all--in house, and was well-equipped to handle most anything that came up, but so are many other places. C&O 614 was roughly in the 1-2 year timeframe also when it was restored in the early 80s. There are probably plenty others. We'll forget the 2101 miracle, which likely could never be duplicated again with current regulations. It's interesting how the restoration time for steam locomotives has expanded tremendously in the past 10-15 years. Within the obvious answer of "it depends what we find when we take it apart", I wonder how fast you could accomplish a first-class restoration these days if people and money were sufficient and you had an engine in good condition? Kevin |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Wed Jul 21, 2010 4:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
Great points Kevin. I think alot of factors come into play explaining whey restorations are taking longer, but I think they all point towards simple reliability. In your examples: 611 was restored in about a year. The following year she down for several months with firebox problems. Major work was also needed in 1988 and 1991. 2716 also took about a year and was pulled out of service after just one season with major firebox troubles. 1218 took two years and after 4 years was back in the shop where more work commenced over the next 3 years still unfinished when it all ended in 1994. Today, the operation has to have a reliable engine. Break down on the mainline delaying freight movements and you aren't getting invited back anytime soon. For Amtrak certification they look for several hundered miles of trouble free running. Even the passenger demographics are different. In the 1980's alot of passengers remembered steam and it was a nostalgic experience. If the old engine broke down it was understood. Today if you want to fill a train you have to target a generation who wasn't even thought of when steam was in regular service and only a small subset of which are railfans. Put them on a train that breaks down in the middle of no where and they miss their favorite tv show that night and you will see their facebook/myspace/twitter pages lighting up like Christmas trees telling the world how horrible of an experience this was. It's simply not the old days anymore. Even though NS is backing this I don't want to think about what happens if 4501 gets out and starts missing appointments due to a laundry list of ailments. |
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| Author: | John Risley [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
Well I doubt very seriously if either TVRM or NS would attempt anything that wasn't done right. Both organizations deserve more credit then to follow the same path after what was learned years ago. Comparing now to the 1980s and 1990s is comparing apples to monkey poop. Whole new world and again both parties mentioned are professionals. Back to could it be done? I think it could. Scott Lindseys group could easily handle much of the work, as could a number of other contractors out in the world. Boiler work........... again there are people who could pull it off barring finding out the orginal boiler was designed with major flaws like some of the Penn RR fireboxes. If you had a crew of people who had the tools to make/bend/form your needed firebox parts or roll a new barrel course. A crew of guys who didn't get called off to other jobs or other parts of the country........you see where I am headed with this? I doubt if TVRM would be attempting all the work at one shop, on three locomotives at the same time. Maybe we should just be patient and see how this unfolds? I kind of find the whole thing fun to dwell on, but I trust that the people involved are smart enough to plan this out with some reasonable expectations. In all fairness the time line would scare me, mighty big undertaking. Just don't like to put limitations on what could be done, because it could be done. But it would take some real go getters to pull it off. Oh to be young and have a good back. I would be trying to figure out how to get hired on with somebody. Fun discussion. Cheers, John. |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
If you throw professionals at this--people who do this stuff in their heads and sleep--it can make all the difference in the world. Take, as an example, how long it would take you, armed with the tools you have and the Chilton/Haynes manual, to change out a radiator or alternator or fuel pump in your car (provided you're not a "gearhead" who makes a hobby of this) versus your local garage, or versus a garage that specializes in your make of car. They'll be lowering the lift (that you don't have) with a finished car before you finish reading the manual and get in the car to go buy those tools and parts you don't have or can't find....... And that's even if you have an idea how cars work. |
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| Author: | ctjacks [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
I'm not sure who this "unseenthings" person is - isn't it interesting the people who make these terse postings use fake names? 4501 is going to take a lot more than "tubes and patching", unless you just want to operate at 10mph. TVRM I presume is working on the details now, and I assume they will make a public announcement. I also find it hard to believe they could have this engine ready by this fall or next year, but given the right amount of labor maybe it can be done. True, the steam restorations of the glory days (4449, 2101, 611, etc.) were done in much shorter time frames. But, keep in mind that these engines all only saw 10-20 years of service, then were parked for only 15-20 years before restoration. An engine such as 4501, or C&NW 1385, that was basically never retired, is a different story entirely. As is the CN engine TVRM bought a few years ago: it was stored outside for 50+ years with basically no maintenance to it in very harsh conditions. I would encourage TVRM to publish what it has done, and what it intends to do with 4501, as has the group that restored the SF 3415 in Kansas, and as the 765 group did. I find that to be very interesting and informative. Chris. |
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| Author: | Steamguy [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
The updates or lack thereof could have to do with how this thing is truly structured. On one end of the spectrum it could merely be NS giving TVRM the green light to operate limited excursions not unlike they did during the old program when 4501 and TVRM coaches would be used for autumn leaf specials. TVRM may be given access to NS rails under special circumstances with some financial help from NS in exchange for the PR benefit. On the opposite end of the spectrum NS may be essentially leasing the engines from TVRM and contracting with TVRM to restore them at NS's expense and giving TVRM the option of running the engines at the museum when not needed by NS. I would imagine the details lie somewhere in between, but NS could very well be fronting the restoration work on the engines. Lots of corporate red tape could be why we don't see an army of men working on these engines yet. I also find it very curious that we aren't seeing any official updates on 630 even though all indications are it will be running this fall. Earilier in the year pictures were posted of the drivers going back under, discussion of the tender, etc. and then all official communication stopped. I'm also noticing that alot of the higher ups at TVRM who regularly posted to this forum in the past are noticably silent lately. I hate to speculate, but I'm wondering if NS is giving TVRM a chunk of change for these engines that would take decades to raise otherwise, but overall responsibility for the engines have been surrendered to NS in the process?? |
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| Author: | Unseenthings [ Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: TVRM/NS Steam |
As you can see, we have a whole page going over the same speculations that we have gone over in other posts. I just wish we could keep the discussion in fewer threads so that 5 years from now if we want to read up on how the NS steam program got started, there would be alot less mess to wade through, I know that there is always more to it than what is expected. I was making a very simplied comment of what was known to be needed for sure. When I was at TVRM the other weekend, they said 4501 did very well on FRA inspection and ultrasound and that she is in great shape. They know for a fact that there will need to be some repairs to the smoke box and of course the tubes. They did not mention the running gear, but it seems there are those on here that know it needs repair, so I'm sure we can add that to the list. I'm not hiding behind anything, I use the same user name on about 30+ forums i'm a member of, and as my e-mail. It comes from 2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. I'll be happy to talk to anyone concerned about the nature of my postings, |
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