How much can be seen entering a boiler with tubes and dry pipe in place? Is this a normal thing now with the FRA? Granted they are within their rights to inspect anything they wish; I'm just curious what they'd be looking for. I guess maybe you can see the crown sheet.

Steve

That would depend on your size and the size of the boiler.

Perhaps they wish to look in through washout plugs and other handy openings. Braces would be of primary interest in my experience.

dave

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Thanks for the enlightenment. I always thought interiors were only inspected when a tube job was in progress so everything can be seen but I guess not.

Steve

my only question is how can you get inside with all the tubes in the way? or can you clamber around the microspaces?

The tubes and flues don't go all the way to the top of the boiler barrel but only as high as (a bit below) the top of the crownsheet. So depending on the boiler there is some cramped room in there atop them.

In TRAINS 1976 profile of Bill Purdie, SR's "Master Mechanic - Steam Engines," DPM tells the story of how 4501's dry pipe failed during an excursion from general wear and corrosion. Normally one would replace it by pulling off the smokebox front, removing all the superheater units and the header. Due to a tight excursion schedule Purdie & Co. and a contract boiler crew opted to replace it from the inside working through the steam dome. They cut up and removed the old pipe and then took in new pipe in sections which they laboriously welded together inside the boiler. So, yeah, there's a bit of room in there on a larger engine.

So, does anyone know if the dry pipe currently in 4501 is this welded up unit or was it replaced during later boiler work?

Steve

Do you remember Steve Martin's old routine "let's get small"? Actually you can see a good bit of the critical portions from inside the boiler on top of the tubes.



Wow! I had no idea this took place. The dry pipe was replaced on W&W #98, it was a huge undertaking.

"Back in the Day" when I was a bit younger, smaller, and more flexible, I could get in the boiler of a 50 ton Vulcan with the tubes in place. Take all stuff out of my pockets, and sometimes take my boots off. I sometimes tend to be claustraphobic, so I would stop wiggling, close my eyes, breathe deep, and relax.......then squirm some more. Once inside, I did all I had to do, as I really balked at doing it twice in one day.

Never been in anything bigger than a 100 ton locomotive boiler with the flues in after hydro. On the smaller locos that I was in, first you pulled the steam dome cover and finished removing the throttle body casting from the dry pipe. This then gave you room to slip inside and crawl around on top of the flues. In many ways it might seem you can't see much, but as already stated you can still see quite a bit. Nothing beats having the tubes all out and having full access. The big thing is to know what your looking at during the inspection. Boilers often speak there own language to a trained eye. You can spot old repairs that can be hard to see by most people. As stated, wear and tear and possible future problems on the rise. I love working with boiler inspectors or people who know there stuff and are willing to answer all my dumb questions. Certainly I am only a student of this work, not at all a qualified expert.

When I was eighteen, an {unqualified} shop superintendent {some are into big titles} told me {two unqualified makes qualified right?} to pull the throttle on the CN&W1385. I had run hydro's on some of the smaller loco boilers and had pulled the throttle bodies after sealing them and running the hydro so the inspector could take a look around. When the "super" told me to pull the throttle I was confused and asked him to specify if he meant the throttle rod and lever or the throttle castings inside the boiler. He pointed to the throttle on the backhead. That was not correct and ended up being quite an unexpected project, Mr Wantz fixed that one. So when I started to go about pulling the throttle body out, a helper was assigned and between the two of us the washers for the connections got scattered and not kept in order. This had a two stage throttle and it had to be put back in a certain way, you couldn't just put the pins in, install cotter keys and go. It would leak and not function properly. This was not known till after it was steamed up of course. We had prints for about 4 or 5 CN&W R-1s and none of them matched our boiler. So we had to go to trial and error to correct the problem until we got it right. Now it wouldn't be a big deal, but at the time my knowledge was even less than now. Linkage has always give me a run for my money and at that time I didn't know how to correct it myself. Actually now that I think back to it with a new throttle rod from the backhead running to the throttle castings and linkage it wouldn't of mattered anyhow as the linkage dimensions would of changed somewhat anyway. Guess I can quit feeling guilty about that one. Cheers, John.

The whole point of this is to new guys, keep you washers separate and put them back exactly the way you found them, it might make a difference! Duh! I am probably 40 lbs heavier now, not sure I would fit as easily as back then!

Does anyone who may enter a boiler check for the oxygen levels? Does anyone have, rent or borrow a device to check the oxygen level? Is there a procedure in place in case someone should pass out from bad air. How do you get that person out of the confined space? Your FRA inspector will not enter the boiler untill he finds that it is safe to do so. He will also show up with his own oxygen meter. next time you do a hydro, check the oxygen level, you will be surprised at what you find.

Bob K

Yes!! Check the current edition of the NBIC. The inspector is required to watch out for him/her self when entering a confined space. In stationary applications, a confined space violation can make OSHA very unhappy. Please get a "sniffer" and check those things. You only die once. I would not want to retrive a body from a small boiler. The thought of it is very unpleasant. Remember, this hobby is supposed to be fun. Let's keep it as safe as possible.

From what I've read a 2nd inspector is to be present for that precise reason.

Steve

I remember the article on replacing 4501's dry pipe. In addition to the hoses for the torches, the boiler also needed to have air pumped in so the men could breath. It didn't help that the torches consumed much of the air. I also wonder how hot it was in there.

There have been a number of stories over the years about men working in boilers, and somebody thought they were out and closed them in with the dome cover or something. No one died that I know of, thanks to a lot of hammering and yelling from inside the shell, but the experience had to be unnerving at best.

There was a recollection about a fellow who had to install a dome throttle, but he had a problem with the studs in the dome poking him in the stomach as he worked to get the throttle in. His foreman asked about the trouble, and was told of it. The foreman said what the man should do was to put the throttle in from below. Our boiler man then asked how he was supposed to get back out. The foreman replied that they would just get another boiler man.

The two knew each other well enough to know this was a joke--and it helped the mechanic put up with getting the throttle in.

Wasn't working with steam fun? :-)

Does it say specifically a second inspector or person? The FRA requires that the inspector have with him an Oxygen monitoring device. Yes a second person does accompany the FRA person. If a problem is encountered a second or third person isn't much of a help unless there is a plan or way to bring an unconscious person out through the small opening. This could be very problematic when it is hard enough for a conscious person to wiggle through a boiler access. Have you ever read where someone has passed out in some type of tank during a cleaning operation and the second then third and fourth person who enters to remove the first person all die as well as the person they tried to save?

One of my mentors told me the following in the late 1980's:

The late Mr. J.K. Byrne, of Shreveport LA worked for the KCS in Shreveport, and then later was "loaned" out to the Reader RR. He came to KY to assist with the initial operation of Kentucky Central #11 / ex-Reader #11. He told that one incident of a man who would sleep in a boiler during his lunch break in the Shreveport Roundhouse. One engine (with front throttle I'll assume) was almost ready to be outshopped, and the call came to immediately get it on the road due to other loco failure. The dome lid was put on and the boiler filled with hot water/steam from the roundhouse steam plant. After making it a few miles on the mainline, the engine eventually became lame, and limped back to the roundhouse light. Inspection revealed clothing fouling the throttle.

I dunno, but that's how J.K. told it.