Perhaps a few high IQers, here on this forum, can shed a bit of light, regarding an interesting apparatus installed in some steel business cars and steel private cars ( not modern types but original steel heavyweights ) . Throughout the years, I have been around a fair share of heavyweight business cars, along with private cars, and always wondered the frequency of fireplaces installed as original equipment per the builders ( as in Pullman, ACF, PRR in Altoona, etc ) .... Now I know the Pennsylvania Railroad on a majority of their steel business cars ( both Altoona built and Pullman built ) had fireplaces in their parlors ( first room in off the platform ) .... However when a majority of the cars returned to Altoona in 1952 and 1953 for their class rebuilding, many of the cars lost their fireplaces. However some did manage to survive, as shown in the photograph provided below .... The example shown is on PRR Car 180 "Philadelphia", which was built in 1913 as a S70 class car that seems to have operated as a "private car" per some PRR records, however in 1916 regained its business car title, and later became a class Z74cr after its major rebuilding in Altoona in 1952.... As many cars lost their fireplaces, this car, after its major rebuilding, retained its fireplace ( as shown below in this official PRR photograph dated from the Altoona shops dated 1952... Unfortunately like many of the Altoona built cars, they were off the roster early during the Penn Central era ( as the PC seemed to favor the NYC Pullman built cars ) ... and in the case of car 180, the car was off the roster in 1969 and later scrapped after leaving Beech Grove and being in a failed potential restaurant...

Now with the exception of say PRR business car 7503 "Harrisburg" which still exists, and PRR business car 7508 "Buffalo" which exists in rotted and basically abandoned condition, and Lucius Beebe's private car Virginia City, not too sure how many steel cars survived late ( beyond the 1950 era ) to retain fireplaces.... Were any other railroads known to have a fleet of business cars with fireplaces ?... or for that matter, if this option was available from Pullman or ACF in the steel car era, why were more private cars not outfitted with them ? I can understand the geographic answer... ( example the Florida East Coast likely did not need cars with fireplaces ) ... however under the same logic, if the PRR had cars with fireplaces, why didn't the Boston and Maine, Great Northern or the New York Central ?.... Likely preferences I would suspect.... and on a side note, I wonder if these were more for appearance sake or actually for function ( heat ) ....

Nonetheless its all interesting..... Perhaps those who are around cars from other roads, can offer some thoughts ....


Dean Levin

"There is no place more delightful than one's own fireplace"

Marcus Tullius Cicero

Anyone wanna go check out PRR Z62 class 7530 Williamsport at the Ohio Railway Museum?

I was in the Willliamsport a few years ago, and can't remember if it had one.

My guess is that the fireplace was for asthetic purposes only. Fireplaces are inherently inefficient and drafty, especially when compared to steam heat from the locomotive, house tracks, or vapour car heater.

I thought a lot of business cars/private cars had vapor heaters up front in order to provide steam heat/hot water in areas where you may not have a locomotive or house heat tracks.

It is an interesting feature, though I feel it's a waste of space. You can put more seating, or a fold down bed on the front bulkhead of the parlor.

What did PRR put in place of the fireplace after the 1950s rebuilds?

Mr. Wilkins ( and the forum )...

First off for Mr. Wilkins ( you gracious offer for a large Stag shipment might be necessary sometime next year if the offer remains .. your kindness shall be remembered ) however back to the topic, the PRR upon the removal of the fireplace, built cabinets as shown in the attached photograph of PRR car 7510 "Pittsburgher"... It would appear ( in certain instances ) the PRR just removed the fireplace, as the flue assembly still appears to be clearly visible in car 7510, as with other cars. Car 7510 ( shown below ) also went through the class rebuild, which was a significant modernization. ( and lost its fireplace ) unlike car 180 ( Philadelphia ) ....Records indicate that a radio cabinet was added at this location or directly adjacent to it.....

Meanwhile, I remembered that PRR car 7507 ( which still survives down in Texas ) and which was owned by the King Ranch, also retained its fireplace....I cant speak for the Williamsport in Ohio, having a fireplace however PRR car 90 ( Delaware ) which was scrapped at the Coach Inn in Fort Washington PA did retain a fireplace, PRR 7502 ( Chicagoan ) , PRR 7504 ( Quaker City ) 7506 ( Illinois ) 7507 ( also which wore the name Quaker City ) all show a fireplace after 1952/53.... PRR 120, which previously had a fireplace, did not have a fireplace after its class rebuilding..... Not sure of the PRR Ohio that still exists in upstate New York..... It would appear that PRR class Z68's did have fireplaces, and the smaller Z62's had a desk at this location.....

So.... on the PRR, some cars lost a fireplace in exchange for cabinets, and some cars ran with fireplaces till the very end....

Here are two interior photographs from car 7510 that went through the class rebuild in Altoona in 1953 ( losing its fireplace.. you can compare it to the above photograph of PRR car 180 ) and an exterior view of the car in service ( note the extra large track lights applied to this specific car ) ...


Dean Levin

"He who wants to warm himself in old age, must build a fireplace in his youth"

unknown author

Am I correct in my memory that the NYC had a few of it's office cars built with fireplaces? Seems like they were in the dining room and of an entirely different design.

Having studied the Baker Car Heater and the Stearnes car range I know that sparks (and safety) were of considerable concern in their design. The Baker heaters had a plate which prevented fuel (coal) from being added while the door was open, thus preventing a disaster in the car. But a fireplace would not have such a device...so poor judgement would have allowed one the opportunity to cause much damage to the inside of an otherwise fine car.

Imagine the conflaggration in the fireplace a car traveling at high speed. The draft would have been strong enough to pull the lounge furniture up the stack.

Question: Did Frisco lounge cars have real fireplaces in them? I have seen photos but never knew if they were real or a phoney.

T7

Termite...

You are indeed are correct.....

The New York Central must have had a few cars with fireplaces in the dining room... Photograph is of NYC 3....


Dean Levin

Wouldn't they just have a rule against using the fireplace while the car is in motion? That would seem to be the only safe course of action.

Of course, even better would be a nice, foolproof oil stove.

Making rules is easy...enforcing them is tough (especially when the rulebreaker is a VP or board member).

What about the odors? Anybody who has a real fireplace can testify to the fact that the smell of wet ashes is not very pleasant. Even the tightest damper can leak during a downpour.

Thoughts?

Dean,
How about a fireplace in a wood bodied car? When Beebe & Clegg purchased Georgia Northern 100 from the Pidcocks in early 1948, as a part of the Victorian interior installed by a Hollywood interior designer, a fireplace was constructed in the redesigned and expanded parlor. This car, of course, is THE GOLD COAST, preserved and exhibited at the California State Railroad Museum. As built (Central of Georgia Officer's Car No. 97, Savannah Shops, 1905-1906) it did not have a fireplace. In fact, there were two sections removed in that part of the car to expand the parlor. I wonder if the fireplace was functional or merely an aesthetic addition?

Regarding draft issues, would the momentary change in air pressure when a train enters a tunnel blow stuff back into the car?

Stephen ( and the forum ) ,

I once had the opportunity to go through the Gold Coast and I do recall the fireplace... did not realize that was a Beebe & Clegg decision, yet I do recall, they had the fireplace installed in the Virgnia City.... Interesting no less....

I went back and looked into the PRR wooden business cars, and many cars at the turn on the century did have fireplaces, however when you get back into the 1880's and 1890's they were not nearly as common.... On a side note, I thought a few people might find a few pictures of car 7508 of interest... The PRR 7508, still exists today in southern New Jersey, and I had the opportunity to see the car on numerous occasions over the last few years.... The PRR 7508 still retains its fireplace, and ended its PRR service life as a PRR Z74cr... The car carried the name Chicagoan, Washington and in 1956 had the name Buffalo.. In 1964, it became a M&W car, and made it to Penn Central before being sold in 1973... This car had one drawing room and one state room and had what was identified as "box seats" on the platform.... The remains of the car still exist in deterioated condition 37 after being sold by the Penn Central... The fireplace remains....

Dean Levin

( note in picture two, the box seats and fireplace )

I wonder what kind of damper or smoke jack a fireplace in a railroad car would have?

Perhaps air conditioning (somehow) played a factor in their removal?

There is a newspaper story about the Japauldon having a fireplace but Beebe noted something like "no fireplace can be found on the builders floorplan". A footnote to history?

T7

What did these fireplaces burn in them? Coal or something like a DuraFlame log? I believe some dining cars used logs like a DuraFlame log in the oven back then.

I searched online for private cars with fireplaces. Francis L Sutter with wood burning fireplace.
http://www.privaterail.com

Virginia Railcar still has a private car with a working propane fireplace.
http://www.vcrail.com/virginia_city.htm

Found this blurb on Vanderbilt’s NYC 3

The present owner obtained the car in 1992, and, with the aid of original Pullman builders photographs supplied with the car, remodeled it to "approximately 1930's appearance with Y2K mechanics and conveniences." The floor plan is as originally designed with the exception that the working tile fireplace in the dining room was removed during a major renovation following World War II.
http://www.nyc-3.com/profile.html

I too am curious about fumes at stations, fire safety in a roll over, etc. After steam heat they were only there for looks.

Those are the three types of cars we had discussed here...NYC cars, PRR cars and the Virginia City. Beyond those three areas we can find no fireplaces.

Butane was an abomination that was rarely used. The ranges burned coal, wood and charcoal right up into the Amtrak era and beyond. Baker heaters burned coal well into the 1970's until railroads turned to electricity to solve all of their problems. Steam was used while in service on a passenger train (and sometimes when parked at a private car track) but it was limited to those services.

T7