Our NRHS chapter has been offered the gift of about 50 sticks of 70-lb rail. While on the one hand it would be nice to keep for future expansion of our fledgling NC Narrow Gauge Museum, I can't help but think we would do better selling it for scrap.

Looking on the internet at scrap prices, it looks like we can get up to 30% more $$ if we cut it into 2-foot lengths.

While I need to verify this locally, assuming it is true, what recommendations does this community have on an economical rail saw and blade types? Any ideas on cost?

Thanks!

Matt Bumgarner

Use an oxy-acetylene cutting torch.

70# rail can be worth up to $800/ton IF, it is #1 relay quality and has matching joint bars. I have been involved with many rail purchases and if there is a buyer, it has value beyond scrap.
A musuem I am affiliated with recently traded in a quanity of 70# rail and it got about $180/ton, uncut.
Cutting it into 3'(not 2') chucks will make it #1 scrap and command a higher price. Be aware this may not be cost effective.
The whole deal would revolve around how good the 70# rail is.

Ira Schreiber

Yes, 70# has value as rail and is historically appropriate for the railroads you are interpreting relative to modern heavy rail. If you need to raise funds, find a better way to do it without turning something you will need into something you won't have when you do need it down the line.

dave

I hear you, Dave, but that balance is the exactly the question we have to answer.

For instance, in the last two months, we have laid 300 feet of dual gauge track with rail donated from our patron railroad- the Alexander Railroad. Our next step is building the car barn.

While our physical layout was designed to be expanded, realistically we are 7-10 years away from needing more track IF we even do need it then.

So the question is, do we store the rail somewhere (while worrying about its security and fluctuating value over time), or liquidate it for funds that will allow ETWNC #1 to run again or ETWNC 434 to be pulled, etc??

Honestly, I'm leaning towards getting the $$ to finish up what we have and what we know needs to be finished rather than keeping it for a future, that, while hopeful, is still uncertain. Sort of a bird in hand vs two in bush scenario.

Thanks for the info and opinions!

Matt

Matt, If you want to cut it up, do it with a propane torch that has a Scorpion tip. I have used such a torch for over 20 years commerically as a scrapper and reseller. Also on railroad repair jobs. Propane is cheaper than acetylene and can cut just as fast with the Scorpion.

On the other hand, 70# is getting scarce as a lot of rail and hardware was scrapped when the scrap price became so high a couple of years ago. I have tried to find hardware for the 60# & 70 # rail without much success, even through my many contacts in the resale companies. Consider selling it through Rail Swap or some other sites. You might come out ahead than the price after all the labor and costs of chopping it up.

Harry Nicholls

it makes me think about the Indianapolis Traction Union Terminal shed was saved
but eventually the museum that aquired it eventually scrapped it. Now its never around to recognize a historically significant building structure.

it would sound like an insult to me if I just donated to a museum something of value that eventually just got scrapped when I could have just scrapped it.

based on one estimate thats about 49000 bucks whatever way sold.
Really, you just got some rail that you don't need to try to hunt down later, consider a cross donation to EBT since some vandals ripped some of their track.

Fifty sticks of 70-pound rail will have a net weight of about 17.5 tons. (70 lbs./yard X 500 yards) At $800 a ton (an awfully high scrap price, in my opinion), that would net you about $14,000. Your scrap man is more likely to give you maybe $150 or $200 a ton. You do the math. How much will it cost you in 10 or 15 years to buy some more 70-pound rail -- if you can even find it?

Find a place to stack it that's fairly secure (50 sticks will not take up a whole lot of space if stacked properly), lock up the joint bars and other track materials (plates, etc.) somewhere safe, and let it accumulate in value until you need it.

And by the way, cutting it into 2 or 3 foot lengths is not a cost-effective way to scrap it. It will cost you more in gas and time than you will make on the sale. If you absolutely must sell it for scrap, sell it to a rail broker like A&K, Birmingham Rail & Loco or Atlantic Track & Turnout.

Think about that scarcity of good clean 70# rail, or any rail less than 100#+ these days, if its good you will regret doing anything but keeping it. 70 lb/yd rail is really rare now.

To use your own words (if its really good rail); Store it, worry about its security, and don't worry about its fluctuating value over time.

If it were 90 lb/yd or 100 plus lb/yd, I'd easily say scrap it.

All are great suggestions and points, but two things about the donation:

a) They are sticks only. No joiners, etc.
b) I really have no idea as to condition yet.
c) That $800 price/ton seems high to me too, especially with no fittings. I hope it is that high.

With regards to cross-donating to the EBT, we would GLADLY trade rail to them or anybody else for some 36" gauge trucks or other usable equipment.

Now, here's the situation. And for discussion purposes, lets say this rail is worth $6000 as-is, about 1.5 times our usual annual budget.

1) Our track was just built and we likely won't need anymore for YEARS to come, if then.
2) We could use cash to purchase narrow gauge trucks for the 3 narrow gauge cars we do have, plus likely 3 more sets for cars we are negotiating for.
3) We need $5k to get ET&WNC #1 running again. Our target date is for the 31st National Narrow Gauge Convention in September.
4) We have an Edwards car that will need tens of thousands of $$ to restore.

Am I really to believe that it would be better to have 300 ft of new track already laid, with 4-6 narrow gauge cars and an Edwards car up on blocks with 50 sticks of rail stacked up neatly waiting for an opportunity to be used that may never come? I realize the relative scarcity of 70# rail, but dang, is its rarity worth more than wooden cars or narrow gauge hardware??

How is that being a good steward of our chapter's assets? Why is it not better to use those assets to finish current projects and be able to start new ones than to hold on to something to address a need that may or may not ever be needed?

And in answering, don't question the wisdom of spending $$ on the track instead of investing in the equipment first. The track and car barn is not being paid for with our organization's money and in simple terms it was a matter of timing and mutual benefit between two organizations.

Thanks for this discussion, it is very helpful.

If you choose to scrap it, call every scrap yard in 100 miles, let them know they are bidding, and take the high bid. What you have is considerd premium scrap-all one metal, no cleaning needed, and a good amount of tonnage.

Robert

If torch cutting rail, you do not have to completely cut the entire rail. You can elevate one end of the rail, cut through the base from one side and a little into the web of the rail. Let it cool, winter is a great time for this, then you start at the lower end of the elevated rail and break it with a large sledge hammer. This will save a lot of gas and oxygen. Some older rail is harded to break this way then newer rail.

With the amount of rail you have, I would not go to a scrap yard. You have enough rail to fill a semi trailer, this will allow you to go through a broker and ship directly to a steel mill or a foundry. This can get you a $150 to $200 more per ton then a local scrap yard. You will have to have a way to load it and pay a trucker.

You will also need proof of ownership. I am in Indiana and with a new State law, you must have proof of ownership for the scrap yard to purchase some materials, this included rail. I tried to take some old scrap rail I have had for over 20 years to a yard recently and they would not purchase it. I purchased it from the U.S.Government and have since cleaned my files of the receipts.

If you should hire someone to scrap the rail, watch who you hire. I recently contacted a man who's family has been in the railroad business for as long as I know, selling rail, locomotives and parts, to scrap a locomotive frame. He gave me one price to do the job, sent another man to do the work, who gave me another price. I wanted the frame and material gone, so we worked out a deal. He never finished the job, but he did get paid. He brought in 2 semi trailers and a loader, loaded up the trucks and sold the material to a buddy of his that owned a scrap yard. I NEVER SAW A DIME!!!!!! I currently have the Sheriff's department after him.

Watch who you deal with!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I were the donor and found out that the "non-profit" I GAVE 50 sticks of 70 lb. rail to scrapped it for profit, I would never "give" them another pound of anything.

That is a fair sentiment we should be sensitive to if that's the route we take.

However, we're not scrapping it "for profit". We are contemplating trading it or turning it into cash to finish some worthwhile projects that have significance to not only the town, but the state and region itself. We have made no statements, implied or explicit, on how we are to use this donation. How is this different than any other donation to a museum that deaccessions non-critical items and swaps its value to something more inline with the core collection. How is it any different than a cash donation?

Again, fair question. That's why we are seeking informed opinions.

Thanks!

Matt

I'm going to be blunt here.

Unless you have the figurative gun to your head ("move it in a week or it's gone"), if you chaps scrap this rail, certain folks will come out of the woodwork and whack you silly with spike mauls and spike sacks. DO NOT SCRAP THIS RAIL unless it is either truly badly worn or so old/badly made that it breaks if you look at it funny.

Vintage light stick rail of any sorts is becoming very difficult to find, like guys who know how to rebuild carburetors or folks who know vacuum tube technology. Wouldn't it be bizarre if, for example, the National Park Service finally takes over the East Broad Top with a mission to rebuild the whole line, and they end up having to use 130-pound rail or even welded rail? You can rebuild the WW&F or C&TS the "old-fashioned" way with light rail; you probably can't with heavy rail--and bang goes another part of the "preservation" experience.

Horse trades--even convoluted ones with four parties--are possible if the rail is intact. Not so if you liquidate it in a non-preservation fashion. Explore all options. Advertise the lot with TRAIN/ARM. Heck, I'm betting one or two parties on this forum have already made offers to you to purchase the lot for preservation projects........