I was reading (elsewhere) about the problem(s) that have troubled this engine for the forseable future regarding packing rings on the cylinders...when steam forces itself past the rings its called a blow-by.
What would cause such an operation to occur? What exactly happens during a blow-by and how detrimental is it to the locomotive?
Is this a quick fix or is it possible 425 won't be out on the road at all this year?

Well, if it is piston rod or valve stem packing, that would not be a terribly difficult fix, but would require a day or two in the shop to do the job. If the problem is valve rings, that could be fixed in a day or two as well, with the level of difficulty depending on whether there was any damage or excessive wear to the valve cages. Piston rings would probably take 2-3 days with a couple of guys, again with the condition of the cylinder bore being the major determing factor for the level of difficulty. Both types of rings are much the same, and would require making in a lathe and cutting or segmenting depending on the ring design. Piston rod or valve stem packing designs also vary, but can either be machined or water-jetted.

All of this is dependent on having the right material available which should be not be hard to obtain, but might require a little searching to find the right alloys in the right size. If either valve cages or the cylinder liners are damaged or worn beyond repair, then you get into making those with subsequent changing out. That would be a more involved process but, again, not something that would require more than a couple of weeks of shop time, depending on manpower. I would think if the desire and money are available, 425 shouldn't be out of service for more than 2-4 weeks at most, if this is the extent of the problem.

Mike
Look ahead, look South - they've got steam down there!

Well Mike its about TIME you got steam down there! Thanks for the info on 425. Considering she sat for about 10 years and her restoration only took about 2 and has been on the road (seasonally) since then, I do believe that the shop forces at R&N should be able to fix this problem fairly quickly and dash any hopes of disappointing railfans. But there is one thing that people (die-hard foamers) fail to realize, is that The Reading and Northern is NOT (any longer) a railfan line. They haul freight and THAT is where the bulk of their revenue stems from. The tourist aspect of the railroad, whether it be Port Clinton/Jim Thorpe runs with 425 or LGSR rides up the gorge with 426 (their newly painted SD50) are just 'side projects' if you will.
I am starting to hate it when people go on saying that they should work on the 1098 or restore the 2102 to benefit the railfans. If and when the time is right and when the MONEY is available as well, these engines (at least the T-1) will be worked on and not just because someone wants to take pictures of it, video, chase it or show it to their kids. It really annoys me that there are people out there that think just because they hang around the side lines taking pictures or chasing trains they think they know what is best for the railroad and not leave it up to the powers-that-be or the people in charge who actually DO know what to do.
Glad to hear that this 'glitch' that 425 might possibly have is not as serious as 'some' people (elsewhere) have made it out to be and there IS hope of her getting out...just a question of when.

Amen Steve!

I too get upset when railfans start to insist a railroad or preservation group do what they want. When the CRHS acquired the ex EL 21165 caboose, we were contacted by a person who demanded we paint it back to it's EL scheme. After pointing out to him that we were the CONRAIL historical society, And not the EL society, he became very upset.

Money talks and most railfans are inherently cheap, so unless someone wants to donate time and money, we've gotta depend on the graciousness of the R&N to get the 425 back. If they're busy or cash-strapped then no 425, simple as that.

Ok, off the soapbox.... :)
Russ

GIGO. Packings are packings and rings are rings. Neither is too difficult, both can be made to order by suppliers if the home shop isn't up to the task.

Niagara Piston R or Double Seal Ring come immediately to mind, as does France Compressor for packings.

Out of round bores can have round rings fitted to them - up to a point. Use custom peening and punching.

If we're talking rings here, I'd be more concerned about a lubrication failure that might have led to the rings collapse within the bore.

dave

Some steam locomotives have poured babbitt packing. If it wears out & you don't have spares you need to make a mold to pour the babbitt in. Making the mold requires expert machinest skills & is not an easy thing to do. Southern #401 has this type of packing

DBH

If you are speaking of the nifty debate over on railfan.net they are speaking about blow by of the piston valves and the pistons/cylinders not packing. Either way I do not see this as the reason for taking her out of service since she ran in this condition already. There are a couple reasons I could speculate why she might be out of service for this year however I do not work for the R&N and I do not work on the 425. Thus I do not see it as my place to comment on it since I know there are those that do work for the R&N who do work on the 425 who can comment here.

As I posted over at RF.net

Maybe the owner just got tired of all the railfans whining about (pick one or more of the following): The engine color, use of diesels, trip routes, what whistle is used, and ticket prices. Perhaps it was freeloaders who never bought a ticket, who tresspassed on railroad or private property over and over or those who felt the need to armchair quaterback every park of the operation.

MAYBE that's why repairs (if that is the case) have been put on hold?

All I know is that the RBMN put on a great trip for us during last year's NRHS convention. The 425 sounded great and did most of the work. The railroad was a class act all around.

It also sounded pretty good to me over the July 4th and Labor Day weekends when I shot it running solo in the Lehigh Gorge and yes, I bought a ticket.

Dave Crosby

Dave is correct in his concern for lubrication failure as the primary cause. SP&S 700 encountered this on its "baptism by fire, trip from hell" some 10 years ago in April 2001. The group was using a grade of Cylesstic steam cylinder oil for valve and cylinder lubrication against the advice of their very knowledgeable paid advisor. It worked fine for short runs around Portland for display and low speed short trips on the P&W, but not for working hard at speed and at close to capacity for hours at a time on the mainline. For possibly the first time since she was restored, she actually got the steam chest up to full working temperature.

I think Ross and Co. discovered that it took a substantial amount of time working at capacity for the steam chest (cylinder walls) to heat up beyond the condensing temp for the superheated steam produced by the boiler on superheated locomotive, especially one with Type E or "Super E" (like 614) style superheaters.

Anywho, the flash point for the oil was lower than the steam output temperature and, by day two, climbing out of Pasco, the valve rings were scorched so bad that the locomotive was having trouble pulling the train. A unit or two were borrowed from a passing grain train heading downgrade and the train was towed into Spokane. They did manage to put the 700 back on the point for the return to Pasco, but the morning of the 23rd, one of the cars picked a switch backing through a crossover in front of the entire crowd of passengers waiting on the station platform. I recall that maybe 3 or so cars derailed with minor damage, but the trip was done. I donated the remainder of my ticket proceeds to PRPA - with the exception of using a better suited oil, they really could not have done a better job. Their hard work and dedication was evident to anyone who cared to observe and I hope they get another big trip sometime in the future. I'm guessing 700 only has about 4-5 years left on her flue time. I don't think she has gotten close to the service days allowed and will max out on calendar time first.

I am guessing that incorrect oil is probably not the problem with 425, however. The proper amount getting to the correct points may be more of the issue. Lubricators are generally reliable, but can be problematic depending on settings, feed lines, and type. Also, a simple mistake with using the wrong oil in the wrong lubricator can and does happen in the real world, though hopefully something like that is caught in time for a fix before additional problems are created. Also, it could just simply be regular wear and tear. N&W practice had the J-class locomotives getting new valve rings installed in the roundhouse during monthly inspection/boiler wash to help them maintain their high availability rate, but, then again, they did average some 15K miles between boiler washes. 610 got them every season or two, depending on operating mileage between winter siestas.

Best,
Mike

And as I posted over on railfan.net...

"Ok, here's the information that I have - from my source (no don't ask who, I won't tell, unless I get their permission to do so) - maintenance does have to be done on 425. It's not an issue of bickering railfans. How long will she be out? Who knows at this point. They could have her up and running by October (hopefully), but if she needs to be out for the whole year, then they will. At this point, not much else is being released in terms of the schedule, because they don't want to promise anything they can't deliver on (motive-power wise). K?"

The chronic blowby problem with the 425 is cureable by doing the proper repairs which include new valve chest liner, new rings/packing etc. It's a repair that all together will require an investment of approx. $ 50k, take a couple months to finish PLUS whatever else the engine currently needs ( if anything) in terms of machanical work.

The bottom line here is does Andy Muller want to invest some capital in the engine or not??

In the case of the R&N it's very straight forward as there is a committee of one that makes all decisions.

Ross Rowland

I'm sure Andy will make a decision based upon common sense and pay no attention to all the experts and their free advice about how to spend someone else's money.
Opinions are like (you know what), everyone has one.
I side with the owner and what HE thinks is the right thing to do.
I'm still getting free advice on what we should have done with the 1522 and all of it is worth what it cost. Nothing.

As with any other old machine, this is yet another lesson to see it, ride it, experience it when you can... ya' never know what's around the bend. I am pleased Mr. Muller has invested what he has in steam over the years. When he's ready, #425 will be ready. Will the other two steam? Same answer. Until then, he keeps his horses in the barn.

In the meantime, there is a lot of "new" old steam ready to hit the road in 2011.

Rob

Hey, Ross,

Did I correctly remember that small part of what you learned with ACE 3000 testing?

Best,
Mike

I'd love to comment on all this, but I need to keep my job! Just be patient everybody.