I am helping assemble two sections of a double semaphore mast that was taken apart we assume by persons unknown for transport. In this application, the upper section of mast with the upper semaphore blade and bell crank, fits into the lower bell crank housing and then is secured in place by some sort of filler/adhseive.

The people we've talked to about it so far have described the material as "monkey sh*t", sulphur, and a few other less useful terms.

From the remains on the pipes, it looks like it could have been lead, zinc or possibly sulphur as described above. Online searches do describe using sulphur as an adhesive, but I have no experience working with that material.

We can't be the only once trying to reassemble one of these. What are others using now? None of the semaphore manuals we have mention how to "glue" the masts to gether at all.

Absent a prototypicaly correct solution, I'm recommending using an epoxy like Crosby's Wirelock which is normally used to secure wire rope to spelter sockets in lieu of zinc. Is there any reason this won't work?

Greg

Howdy,

Back in the old days cast iron sewer pipes in houses were joined with a combination of "caulking" (think soft rope like used on wooden ship decks) and molten lead. A bell and spighot (spelling?) joint was assembled and soft rope was "crammed" into the joint with of all things a "caulking" chisel which looked a lot like a thick spoon with the tip cut off. Then if the pipe was vertical lead was melted and poured into the joint above the rope until it filled up the joint. On horizontal pipes they had a special little clamp on ring with an opening on the top to pour the molten lead into. The joints where pretty leak proof and strong, and you could always go back with a punch and hammer the lead tighter into the joint. Part of the reason for the rope was to keep the lead from dripping into the pipe interior because the joint itself was pretty loose before the caulk and lead was added.

Perhaps this is what was used ?

A modern adhesive would probably work much better. Maybe something like Devcon (TM), (this is a two part epoxy filled with metal "dust", it comes in many flavors, "Liquid Aluminum", "Liquid Steel", Bronze, Titanium, and even Ceramic, but it requires thick wallets) would work ? Put some rope, or rags or something in the bottom of the joint so a few hundred dollars of Devcon dosen't run down inside the lower section of the mast.

I doubt sulfur was used, while it will melt at a resonable temperature, it is quite brittle after it "freezes" back into a solid form. After a few wind storms the sulfur would probably rattle away into dust.

Maybe some form of heat melted mastic (Monkey droppings) was used instead of lead, that may have been around and was probably used to seal wire openings into lineside signal boxes ?

Oh, one other choice I just thought of, get yourself about a half dozen packs of "JB Weld" (TM), this is a DIY version of the Devcon products that is a little thicker but is more reasonable for those of us with thin wallets. You can find it at most of the big DIY/Home Improvement stores. It's a two part epoxy, mix up the first pack and let it start to set up for 5-10 minutes, then "caulk" the bottom of the joint with it. Let it set for an hour, then mix up the rest of the packs and pour it (slowly if its a cold day) into the top of the joint.

After a while I read your post again, I saw your specific question. Yes, it appears that the Crosby product will work. JB Weld may be more economical. But it seems that melted mastic may be the true prototypical choice that was used. With a melted mastic (monkey droppings) solution your chances of ever getting things apart again would go up dramatically. With any of the epoxy solutions you have made a permanent joint that probably cannot ever be disassembled without destroying the masts. With a mastic solution it seems that all you need is a good hot welding torch to take things apart again if you need to.

I'd look into some nice heat melted mastic or lead type solution, perhaps something from the roofing field ? They must have some stuff that melts at a reasonable temperature and is cheap ?

Good Luck,

Cheers, Kevin.

Greg:
It would be great if you could post a photo of the signal mast in question, that way we could narrow down the answer.
Having said that I am guessing that you are talking about putting a steel mast into a cast iron casting ???? Since railroad signals are a huge interest of mine I can offer three answers to your question.
1. The mast was pressed into the cast iron
2. The mast was pressed and leaded in.
3. The mast was pressed in and sulphur poured in.
These were the methods used by Union Switch and Signal Co.

If your mast was cut off and a small piece left pressed in the cast iron it would be better to weld those two sections of steel together and add a sleeve inside to give it strength. If you choose to press the mast into the cast iron you run the risk of cracking the casting. No doubt the casting was heated first, then the mast was pressed in. Getting those two conditions just right can be difficult, I speak from experience.

Kevin

I don't have any photos of the joint in question here. I'll try and take some this weekend. The mast we are working on is like the one on the left in the attached image.

There is no "press" on the joint. The OD on the pipe on the upper short mast is 5-1/8" and the ID of the casting the pipes fits into is 5-3/4" so it is a sloppy fit at best. It appears the pipe fits into the casting about 6-1/2" and near the bottom, the inside of the casting bells inward so the upper pipe has a positive stop.

I've made up lead joints in plumbing and used molton zinc to make up spelter sockets for rigging gear, but absent good guidance why we shouldn't, I'm still leaning towards using an epoxy.

Greg

Don't assume you will never want to take it apart again.

dave

The cast metal joint will set to full strength much more quickly than epoxy--if you have a way to hold the joint stationary for 12 hours or more, which could be problematic in a field situation. Conditions also need to be warm enough for the epoxy to "kick". I would go with lead myself, simply because I could break the joint in the future if I had to.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Howdy, one of the reasons I like this site is because I learn things here.

Quoting Kevin Kohls;

“3. The mast was pressed in and sulphur poured in.”

I had not previously heard of sulfur used as an adhesive, I would have thought that it was too brittle, but the surface area of the joint was probably large enough that it worked, but maybe lead lasted longer ?

I’m still recommending mastic or lead since you can always take it apart again. Epoxy is pretty final.

Good Luck, let us know what worked for you,

Cheers, Kevin.

One use of molten sulfur was to secure anchor bolts into concrete slabs. It was probably more of a filler than an adhesive.

The hydraulic press of our old Baldwin-Tate-Emery testing machine was anchored in this way. That job was done about 1948.

Why not us a coupling and weld the sucker?

As a wirelock user (pouring wire rope sockets) wire lock will work.
Its kinda expensive but if you have some free stuff.

You wont get it apart with out dammaging the "artifact"......think about the next preservationist that may need to take it apart.

I would give a lot of thought to using a soft castable metal like lead or one of the easly available soft alloys like used tire weights, or used soft cast bullets.

I have used zink on sockets too and my only concern there are the temps required for zink and thier affect on the artifact (might crack the casting).

However I an intrigued by the poured sulfer joint, would like to see some more info on this method.

Lastly thinkg about the next one to take it apart.....sulfer could be chiped out I would think, and lower temp alloys could be melted out with out too much heat.

C W

Greg:
That is quite a gap between the BEARING casting and the pipe (mast). I know that the SP often had three set bolts which is unusual. Perhaps you could add those to your casting.
On the Erie RR the mast was pressed into the bearing without any lead or sulphur. It must have been pressed in under a fair amount of pressure, perhaps using a wheel press.
It sounds like you have been given some good ideas !

Kevin Kohls

We moved the mast from the work area over to the flatcar where we'll do the final assembly and then transport them to the work site. I took some images of the pipe pieces and we loosely assembled so you can see the joint gaps we are dealing with.

There are no set screws, or anything else to help fix it into place.

Greg

One more image from inside the mast.

Molten sulfur has been used to secure parts for a long time. The Romans used it to secure metal into rocks. Examples exist today throughout the Roman Empire. I have tried it to fix iron bars in granite blocks and although the smell is a little offensive it is quite simple. Sulfur melts at about 240 degrees F. Use a cast iron pot. Keep the sulfur out of the flame. It makes SO2 which is noxious. Preheat the work to dry it out and pour it in.

CdW

Greg:
The photos are great ! Here are some more thoughts : Take those cast iron covers off of the bearings (Large Wing Nut and cast iron cover.) You need to lay the signal flat with that opening lying down . It is important that both bearings are lying exactly the same way, or your semaphore specs (casting with the lenses and blades) will not line up correctly.
I could email you a photo of a SP semaphore bearing with set screws, or another way that you could line up the mast inside of the casting would be to place nuts just inside the casting between the mast using them as a spacer before you pour in whatever material you decide to use.
I do have US&S catalog pages if that would help, feel free to email me offline.

Kevin Kohls