Guys and gals,

RYPN's purpose seems to be continually drifting towards a foamer site.

My condolences to the family of the 6-year-old at the Park Train Accident, but this is news, not preservation, and should be either on Flimsies or some other website.

Also, we continue to see posts that are just links to news articles, whats up with that? Where are the Moderators?

The NYC Hudson post, come on guys get a grip! If you want to talk about the "what If" then go somewhere else like Chatski or a Train Orders section and BS. I can see it now, 1361 is due to come up again.

Maybe we should put the RYPN "Purpose" link on the top of the Interchange?

Yeah, Yeah, I know, I know, if you don't want to read something just don't click on it or go somewhere else, maybe its just me.

Scott Kwiatkowski

No, it's not just you Scott. This has been a frequent comment at several museums where I am a member, and you may have noticed that a number of past contributors are no longer posting on this site.

But it is also a problem at other sites. Discussions on railroad dot net that used to get several postings a day now are going several weeks without any new comments. I think part of it is a result of the rampant (and largely useless) speculative discussions, part of the decline is a result of the fascination with these sites wearing off, and a really big factor is that a lot of people are tired of the bickering in internet discussions.

And notice that despite all the discussion of the need for an internet journal of preservation that took place here a couple of years ago, there have been no new articles posted on RYPN in almost three years.

PC

I had to go and read the “Purpose” section of this forum after considering the comments in this thread. From that section is this:

1) report on items and issues of interest to the railroad preservation community; and educate the public to the past and current impact of railroading on the history of this country.

It seems to me that item #1 would cover a lot of territory. Certainly it would include any discussion of railroad history because it all had an impact on the history of this country. Since some of the railroad preservation community has railroad operations that cater to the public, I would think that a derailment with serious consequences of a recreational train that caters to the public would be an issue of interest to the preservation community.

Item #1 does not preclude the discussion of news if that news would be of interest to the preservation community.

It also seems like building a replica of an historic locomotive, or even the speculation of the feasibility and techniques of building such a locomotive would also be of interest to the preservation community.

The post about the three little girls playing on the rails and how it was influenced by their parents as well as those in charge of the property would, I think, be of interest to the preservation community.

I can think of topics that would not fit item #1 above, but I cannot think of any offhand that I have seen lately on this forum. Maybe someone could point them out, so we have a good example of what not to talk about.

Scott,

I think you will find that many of us who contributed time to work on the site and contributed dollars in the past grew weary of the constant armchair critiques.

During the time that I edited the "Briefs" along with Boyd Owens we tried to keep the news content flowing. It took a lot of work, and the regular detractors made every week more of a pain than the one previous. With the loss of so many "regulars" who contributed, the site became the Interchange and not much more. I am grateful for Dave, Tom and the gang for keeping it running. We'd have nothing without their work. Unfortunately, of the regular voices left, the dominant ones are primarily are the "color commentary guys." The "play by play announcers" have mostly moved on. Solving that would help tremendously.

Part of it also has to do with changes in how we use the web. I find topics mentioned on RYPN are often taken off-site via Twitter and Facebook where they can be discussed without the peanut gallery.

I have long argued for "real names" and other changes on RYPN and sites like Yahoo! Groups, all of which are now features of what Facebook offers. Perhaps the next step is to build upon the Facebook groups that are already out there and continue the conversations in a semi-closed circle? From what I am seeing, that is already going on to some extent.

Last summer I had a burst of energy and ideas about RYPN and was jazzed to speak with Dave about them, but I realized that the resource I don't have right now is time...

Rob

Scott,

You ignore something like this--or the steam thresher that exploded in Medina, Ohio several years ago and was extensively discussed here--at your own peril.

No, a park engine derailing in a zoo has not much to do with the prospects of seeing SP&S 700 steam again or which coach BN 98whatever was, or whether we can find a 608A crankshaft to get a Baldwin "Shark" running again. Not directly.

But, mark my words, the odds are excellent that some legislator is going to attempt to impose some well-meaning legislation that will "ensure" that a tragedy like this "never occurs again," probably with a bill named after the dead boy. Because that's the way a great many legislators work, or at least think of themselves, and that's also the way (too?) many of their constituents expect them to act.

And in the fine print of the bill, there's some idiocy that indirectly outlaws the Great Smoky Mountain RR, train rides at Winnsboro, or NS steam excursions in South Carolina.

I hate to say this, but there are, and have been, too many "railroad preservation" outfits that more closely "resemble" amusement park rides than actual rail preservation. Look at the Black Hills Central videos recently posted. Disneyland and Disney World, which use authentic (albeit rebuilt to a mere hair of any original stuff left) Baldwin steam locomotives. Carroll Park and Western (years ago). Clark's Trading Post. Knott's Berry Farm. Huckleberry. Even Strasburg, in as high esteem as we may hold them and their shops and expertise, has this little "carnival ride" Cagney and hand cars puttering about now!!

We've been lucky in that, by and large, we've been able to largely keep away from the purview of amusement park regulators. If you think we compromise with authenticity for safety now, wait'll amusement park regulators start telling us what we have to do.


As for the rest of Brother K's "rant," I'll submit this: The surest way to kill a forum such as this is to impose "micromanagement" of topic/subject regulation. I see forums where they will reprimand or moderate someone for asking questions about a short line on a branch that used to be PRR, because it wasn't a "PRR" question. (Example made up, but only slightly.)
This forum is nowhere near the level of inanity shown in many other rail (or other internet) forums. Go cruise through Railroad.net, TrainOrders.com, or the forums at Trains.com and report back to us. (And those are the ones I occasionally glance at--there are others where the signal-to-noise ratio is unbearable.)

I ask: Do we want to get more people interested in, and involved with, railroad preservation, or do we want to look like Beebe & Clegg's exclusive hoity-toity passenger train, turning up our collective noses at the "riff-raff?" If the latter, I don't know who you think you're preserving all that stuff for............

I agree with Scott on the links to news but that seems to be by one or two members who as I have stated are exhibiting their prowess to link to other sites.

And if you noticed, railroad.net postings dropped like a rock soon after they began taking those annoying ads. Makes me feel like I am still at yahoo!

And news that relates to preservation should be allowed but where do you draw the line? The moderators have to exercise a great deal of diplomacy on that one.

And the king of foamers has disappeared since his real name came to light. Haven't heard from him in a few weeks.

And yes I remember all of the real preservationists that no longer take part in the discussions here. They may still read but they do not post. They are the ones that have taken the lead in rail preservatin and who should have a stronger voice here.

And as I have said before, there are way too many on this site that are not involved in preservation that just want to foam. These folks should be banned for good.

Just my 2 cents.

Later!
Mr. Ed

I'd like to apologize if my thread concerning the NYC Hudson replica has started all this bickering. Scott, Mr. Ed, and others you all have valid points that are unquestionable. However , I think your coming down a little too harshly on those of us who want to express ideas within this forum. What is wrong with talking about 1361? Are we going to reopen an old wound? Does it hurt your feelings to talk about it?
Just for the record, I'm not an armchair foamer. I've put in several years of service both as a volunteer and a hired hand on a few different railroads. The last being 8 years full time year round at the Conway Scenic Railroad. I've eaten my fair share of dust, grime, and gobs of grease. I've been injured on the job a few times, and kept working even though I could have made some easy money off the company insurance policy. I'm a worker not a trackside railfan.
I'm serious about the replica, thats why it fits in on RYPN. If the right people can be brought together then it could become a real life project.

If anyone wants to talk about creating a meeting to discuss the Hudson Replica Project, please contact me at btamper@hotmail.com and write Hudson Replica Project in the subject line.

Brian

I'm with Mr. Mitchell on this one. Amusement park rides may not seem to be related to RR preservation but whenever something like this happens, it should be on the radar of anyone who operates any kind of ride open to the public. Many preservation operations rely on the income from tickets sold for "train rides" to fund their preservation activities, whether those rides are on 1:1 scale trains, or miniature versions. As he stated, some well-meaning legislator won't discriminate between them when he/she decides to find some way to regulate them further.

With regards to posting links to news items, rather than posting the whole story, I've heard recently from a couple of different forum moderators that a number of news agencies are enforcing copyright laws by sending cease and desist letters to forums in which members post entire news stories copied from the original news source. The work-around is to post the headline with a link pointing to the source, which does not violate copyright laws. Apparently the reason for this of late is that many mainstream news sites rely on "hits" to their site to count advertising impressions as their sites are supported by ad revenue on the site. Copying and pasting their stories elsewhere circumvents this so they are taking steps to mitigate the "blatant theft" of their content when it is simply copied and posted elsewhere.

To me, a very important concern of the "Preservation World"should be our very future.
Through the early 1980's many high schools had classes in Machine shop, welding & Auto mechanics. Most of these programs have been cut way back if not dropped. Where are the people going to be trained to keep our equipment running for future generations? Should there be a national school for railway preservation? I don't know about that but I do think the day has come to start worring about the future of what we DO!

DBH

This is where the minds that are actively engaged in preservation generally gather. News relating to operations, legislation, preservation, and discovery, are all important to anybody with an interest in steam power, Diesel/Electric power, subway, and interurban, transportation. Similarly, when a person has a specific inquiry regarding a technical detail (i.e. I need a drawing of a such and such boxcar paint scheme), the people most likely to have access to that information are on this board.
My only objection is when somebody asks question and is slammed with a response like "That's stupid" or "We've discussed that to death". Either make a statement or ignore such queries.

With regards to that, we have SIX "stickies/announcements that permanently hog the top of this board. Is it really too much to ask that we put up one more pointing to a list of "topics already beaten to death--review said topics via a search or [link to the most recent posting/dead-horse-flagellation-party] before posting on this subject...."?

Yeah, of COURSE "clueless noob" parties won't read that announcement/post first and will pipe in with "so whatever happened to PRR 1361/Baldwin Sharks/etc.?" But at least then we can simply say "look here, then come back if you have further questions".

Nominees:
PRR 1361
Privatizing Steamtown
Baldwin Sharks
Reading 2100
American Coal Enterprises/21st Century Ltd./Yellow Ribbon Express
EDIT: ADDED:
So what happened to that proposal to restore a UP Big Boy?
What would it take to restore [UP Big Boy/PRR GG1/SR Ps-4/etc.]?
"Hey, gang, let's build a replica [name a steam locomotive type]!!"
Is there a steam locomotive hidden away in a barn/quarry?
Why don't the Feds/State of Pa. buy and restore the East Broad Top?
Where can I find an online roster/list of preserved steam/diesels/trolleys/passenger cars/stations?

What else?

If the moderators approve the announcement/list, I'm willing to work in what spare time I have to assemble a list of previous topic URLs, and pledge to write as neutral a synopsis as possible.

No, that still boils down to trying to stop people from discussing things and a more friendly approach would be better. Maybe the idea that was semi-joked about in the past, a separate forum for the discussions that will not die, should be given more serious consideration.

Preservation, as a subset of railfandom in general, can use new blood and I don't think it's good to be too harsh on those who find there way to this site. No, the site should not devolve into a general foamer site but I don't think that it really has. There has been lots of really serious information conveyed here; just think about the discussions of boilers and fireboxes, etc., lubrication & bearing issues, transport of equipment, dealing with railroads, and on and on. I really don't think there is a huge problem at all.

But if the constant rehash of 1361, building a brand new whatever, or running a GG1 via some unsavory scheme is annoying to some then by all means shunt them into a new forum. You can't get around the fact that to many people those things really are lots of fun to discuss even if it's always much the same. If that were not the case then new threads on those topics would whither unanswered.

You cannot be all things to all people but it's not hard to be a place where both serious preservation discussions and the never ending new-Hudson discussions can take place under the same roof. Just not in the same stall.
Steve

I really enjoy this site and value the detailed and topic specific knowledge I receive every day. Thank you all for providing it.

I realize the more time consuming articles and briefs will ebb and flow as individuals have time to produce them. I also note that Trains is more competitive for this content now that they have started to create room on their URL for additional content that does not fit in their print copy.

An officer of a railway historical group I belong to would sometimes be called upon to preside over meetings. After receiving reports from the various departments and before adjourning to the slide or video program, he would call for "Railroad news, good of the order and general blather." As long as it doesn't take up too much space, whether you call it "general blathering" or "roundhouse railroading", a certain amount of "bull session" can be tolerated along with, "where can we find a set of 3X6 journal brasses?" or "we finally restored that chicken-coop streetcar body, but we need a K-35 controller for the other end".
I have sometimes typed up a comment or reply, and then deleted it after deciding that it really wasn't appropriate or useful. Most likely, quite a few of the other participants in this site do the same thing. And an occasional humorous or whimsical item can be a relief from the never ending battle against rust, rot, and mechanical infirmities.

(for the record, I've been a member/work party volunteer/amateur streetcar mechanic at a railway museum for over 45 years. There have been days where I've asked my wife to put some clothes in the garage so I could change out of my dirty coveralls before coming into the house)

That doesn't excuse the posts in question, for two reasons:

1) We HAVE the "Flimsies" section--whose sole purpose is to act as a bulletin-board-style "clearing house" of (links to) Internet-posted news media items related to rail preservation.

2) We're not seeking to have the entire content of the article reposted in "Interchange"; rather, we want something more than an occasionally-horribly-vague article headline and a link posted, so we have enough information to decide whether to click on the link and waste our time (or not). It doesn't take very much more time to type "UP Depot in Somewhere, KS moved to park" instead of copying/pasting "Town group chugs to success with depot". Or adding a sentence to that effect. (On the Railroad Station Historical Society e-mail list, the standard practice has become to simply post the town and state, and maybe the railroad, as the e-mail's subject head. But then, you know it's about a RR station.....)

And there's nothing wrong with posting a link accompanying a real query--such as "What's the steamer behind this station in the article's photo that isn't mentioned in the article?" or "Anyone know who this group is?"

We had another forum member, years ago, who frequently swept in once a week or so and stuck up a dozen or more posts that would read "UP 618", "SP 4449", "GW 75", "B&M 3713", etc. and all they would be were links to vintage photos of the loco in service years/decades ago that he flushed up on RailPictures, RRPictureArchives, museum archives, etc.--no actual news or updates. This prompted a whole round of discussion as to whether his posts were properly "railroad preservation" or not--many enjoyed his links; others were annoyed at 10-20 posts at once that would "disrupt" the flow of postings and bump back more "relevant" topics.