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Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
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Author:  Matt Bumgarner [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Today the Alexander Chapter-NRHS took ownership of another narrow gauge Lawndale Rwy boxcar to add to the NC NG collection. This allows us to letter the first Lawndale car we restored/are restoring for one of its predecessor roads- The Carolina & North-Western Rwy. This first car, along with her ET&WNC cousin in our stable, both required some serious repair and complete siding work.

This new car however, seemingly requires no structural wood work whatsoever. No sill work, no interior framing, no flooring, no roofing, no nuthin' ! In fact, it is in such great shape, that we are questioning whether or not we should replace the siding on the car. Most of us believe it is six one way and half a dozen the other. It is original. But it is ragged around the edges. It definitely needs paint, and all of the "drip cap" molding along the roof line needs to be replaced as well.

Our other two cars have new siding, but there was no question about replacing it on them. It was missing or sawdust. So our internal debate is- with new doors, new molding, and modest repairs to a board here and there, should we keep the original siding because a) its original b) provides a contrast to the new siding of the other cars c) is a lot less expensive. (I should note that we have custom knives that can mill the pattern of the tongue-and-groove siding exactly.) On the downside, after we are gone, will anyone decades from now be interested in providing repairs to the car and if not, will the existing wood hold up. (And yes, the cars will be stored in a COVERED shelter, though open from the sides.

We welcome your constructive ideas and opinions...


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Author:  Les Beckman [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Matt -

One vote for leaving original.

Les
Author:  Taylor Rush [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
First off, congratulations on your acquisition, that boxcar looks great and it couldn't have found a better home. The condition of the siding looks good, but not good enough to last unless the car is fully protected from here on out. We have a former Sumpter Valley boxcar that has siding in a similar state, but after much discussion we are going to replace all the siding, but of course save examples for the archives. It just doesn't really seem to pay in the long run to preserve wood siding as long as you can replicate it.

Good Luck, Taylor
Author:  Al Stangenberger [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
I suggest leaving it original for two reasons:

1. It is original fabric, and doesn't look that bad. With a good coat of paint and standing a few feet away it should look fine for an old car.

2. Cost - the last time we (WRM) bought clear Douglas-fir T&G siding, it cost about $20 per board (1"x3")!

Some good filler (like Abatron) and fairing compound (we use Awl-Fair) can be used to fill up the worst gouges. However, do not use a water-based filler like Fix-All, especially if the car is going to be outside since it will break loose and fall out.

Unfortunately, I think that re-siding with new material must be done on an entire side of the car in order to look right. At WRM, I built a new door for one of our wooden box cars (RF&P 2289). The car looks funny with a nice new door on a weathered side, even after painting; we try to park the car so that the new door faces away from the display aisle in our barn.
Author:  Termite7 [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
If you bring it inside and get it in a climate controlled environment I think it will stabilize and last a long, long time. If you leave it in the weather, no matter what you do, it is not going fall apart eventually.

So I vote: leave it as-is (after you get it indoors). Great piece by the way.

T7
Author:  Mike Swanson [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Leave it. The few damaged portions can be passed off as typical of an in-service car, and you've already addressed the areas that do need repair or replacement. Don't make more work for yourselves and waste time and resources that could be spent on other projects when you don't have to.
Author:  colfaxstation [ Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Or you could do the third alternative like the railroads did on occaision, cut angled notch pieces out and repair the end. Make sure if you do the top piece overlaps the bottom piece so the joint sheds water. We've got som e older cars at thye Colfax RR Museum where these repairs are still tight 30+ years later.
Herb Sakalaucks
Author:  car57 [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
how do you know its original ? A lot equipment this age was re-sided at least once.
Mike Pannell
Car 57
Author:  Matt Bumgarner [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
<<How do you know its original ? A lot equipment this age was re-sided at least once.>>

Well, let's say it is original to car when it was in service, at least.

Honestly, if we didn't have two other cars in the collection that had completely new cypress siding, I would go ahead and replace it. We use cypress and mill the Tongue & Groove siding ourselves. That way, the cost isn't so much. It cost about $2200 to completely re-side the first Lawndale car, including the custom knives for the milling machine.

Matt
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Replace the worst of it, save the best of the original. Make the replacement siding apparent to observers, note the original and specify the context value of saving the portion that is original.
Author:  Dave [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
Or neither and both........at the same time.

Salvage the siding from a bad side or end, and use its best parts to patch the rest of the other 3. Reside the now naked side or end.

Like all compromises, it won't please those who want everything to look "like new" or those who want it all 'original", but it is practical and allows for both retention of most of the remaining fabric without glaringly clean, smooth patches when viewed from most sides, and preserving the structure within a good envelope.

dave
Author:  Randy Hees [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
It depends on the use you have planned for the car, where it will be displayed or stored (inside or out)

While the current siding may be original, or a railroad residing, in it’s present condition it does not reflect the car at any time that it was in use as a railroad service.

We tried once to preserve the old siding on a passenger car using “heroic” measures… epoxy reconsolidation, various putty and fillers, high fill primers, lots of sanding, special planes to recut the “v” groove between the boards and replacing a bit of siding where we had to.

We justified the effort saying we were saving fabric, particularly noting that there was at least 4 variations of original siding (two styles, three different woods, mostly clear old growth redwood, nearly impossible to get.) The result while acceptable was not really right. Now 15 years later if we were doing it again we would reside the car. We might go to the effort of using two styles of siding to reflect the 1905 repair after an accident (one of the things we were trying to preserve)

The car, built in 1882, set aside in 1913, had been completely resided at least once while in service, maybe twice. Similar box cars in the collection have been resided about every 25 years… so siding could be considered a consumable component.

Randy
Author:  Kirk Warner [ Sat Apr 16, 2011 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
If you want the siding and restoration to last for an extended period of time, I would suggest replacing the entire siding. At the IRM, I worked with a team that restored URTX-26640. Our original thought was to sand, fill, sand agan and paint the existing siding where we could. We did this on one section of the car and while the results were fairly good to start with, the changes in weather caused some of the filled areas to fail. Also, the siding pieces were beveled on the edges and this is most difficult to repair. We replaced most of the siding on the second side of the car and the other end of the car where we started by filling and sanded the siding. In the end, we wished that we had replaced all of the siding.

If you want to see the restoration go to WWW.IRM.org, under members photos, album Kirk Warner, album Freight Car Restorations, Album URTX-26640.
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Restoration Question- To re-side, or leave original??
I have seen examples of filler/fairing just "popping off" because it hasn't bonded to the wood. The wood side is flaky-dusty, that is there are chunks of dust embedded in the filler.

My impression is that someone had sanded the bare wood; then applied body filler. However, the grooves in the grain were full of dirt, sawdust, flaking rotted wood and the like. The filler adhered to the dust and did not get a "bite". The resin in the filler definitely did not penetrate into the wood.

So I recommend to run a stiff brush over the grooves in the wood, to knock off the dust/dirt/rotted bits, blow it down, and apply a penetrating 2-part epoxy sealer/primer of some kind.

Penetrating, so it'll bond any loose or weak material and penetrate pores. That's so water doesn't. 2-part, so it can cure-in-place once it penetrates. 1-part stuff can't cure unless exposed to air (otherwise it would cure in the can!) Epoxy so it's chemically compatible with our filler/fairing.

Git-Rot is not a primer, it is specifically made for very deep areas, and it will "reconstitute" volumes of rotted wood, essentially replacing wood fiber strength with epoxy, and using the remaining rotted wood as filler. It's for places you can't access the wood.

There are many 2-part epoxy primers, some made for wood. We like Awlgrip 545 at WRM. They recommend to reduce it 25% extra for a first coat on bare wood. That makes it penetrate much deeper, where it cures. Since you're using it as a penetrant, the normal rules of primer don't apply. You want to cover an irregular surface evenly and wet every surface, and brush does better than spray. If you see surfaces losing their "wet paint" sheen, it's because they have soaked in - that's good! Immediately apply more. 3-4 times if it'll drink it up.

This provides a good base for applying epoxy fillers. (most fillers are epoxy). Abatron, Awl-fair as Al mentions. Awl-fair is an Awlgrip product if you care about staying within product lines. My personal favorite is West System; it's extremely versatile, is easiest to mix in correct proportion, and you add filler material to suit.

Fillers tend to be porous, so once you're happy with the sanding, you seal them with 1-2 more coats of primer. Again, an epoxy primer keeps it all "within the family" so if you're unhappy you can sand again, fill and prime again and everything stays compatible.
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