As we spend time on other forums, we have been involved in a discussion that will have an impact here on RYPN. The discussion at hand pertained to lap seam boilers....specifically FORGED lap seam boilers. As we have done for RYPN, we produced a video on the topic. The video is out and can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgBz0cCRqc4

As always, the video is not perfect, it will insight more discussion and indeed, we could have said a lot more or a lot less on the subject.

We are excited to see what kind of discussion will come out of this one!

Kindly yours,

Firstly, any number of early Codes, allowed forged and fusion welded seams on unreinforced vessels not exceeding 18"diameter. A lot of stuff that came out of Philidelphia was so constructed.
Most steam locomotives still around were built with forged verticle dome seams...all butt strap boilers I have ever seen had a gas welded seam with rivited reinforcement (ie the butt strap). The concern at the end of the video for seamless domes does not take into account the reinforcement the flange and dome head provide. BTW I know of no recorded instances of such a seam failure. We have trouble enough in this world without conjuring up a devil that doesn't exist.

I was unaware that this practice was ever employed! A few points. First, Welded pipe is not seamless. Electric Resistance Welded pipe, or ERW, is a seamed product such as SA178 tube and flue material. Seamless pipe and tube is a true seamless material such as SA192 or SA106. The two are very different and not interchangeable. Second, the description of forge welding is a bit off. The two ends of the metal are never actually molten. Instead, they are heated to a point were the metal is VERY soft. A flux is applied to the overlapping parts of the sheet and they are hammered together effectively fusing them.

John

Somewhere I found a spec (at work with no old books handy) for the "Baldwin Fusion Welded Seam" as applied to steam locomotive dome vertical seams. I've only had to deal with one from a calculation POV, and the standard in the book was for either 45% or 55% efficiency if memory serves - much less than for a well designed riveted seam, but given how massively overbuilt the domes were at the time - probably several times as thick as minimum required even at a FS of 4 - unless the seam itself was demonstrably deteriorated applying the efficiency figure made no difference in the ability of the dome to handle well beyond the calculated stress at the factor of safety. Point being, just because there's one of these in your boiler doesn't mean cut it up and throw it away. Perhaps somebody who is still working on this stuff and has a good library could dig out that spec and post it here for us all to enjoy.

dave

Many of the early boilers were made of wrought iron & not mild steel. Wrought iron is much easier to forge weld than mild steel & I am sure this is where & why this practice started.
Dave Huffman

John,
You must have the ASME Code books if you have a Code shop.
If you are going to publish educational videos, you should do research so as not to lead people astray.

Matt Austin

Matt,

Thank you very much for the note. In the discussion over at Smoksatk and off line I have had discussions with others about the comment I made in the video. First, I am very much aware of how materials, like SA 106 are made. I am very much aware of the fact that the seam is a forging and then the material is extruded through a die. Thus creating a "seamless tube".

From a welders standpoint: When you weld a piece of SA 106 for a weld test, there is with-in the tube a visible mark where the joint was made prior to the extrusion process occurred. When you set up a weld test, you look for the marks, line them up and weld the test out. We do this as we have learned that by not matching up the "seams" for lack of a better word, you can and often do end up with testing problems in that area.

Likewise, as I have explained elsewhere, I do not work from a strict script and often I get ahead of myself. There is a comment above about ERW pipe and tubing, which, when you are welding these pipes or tubes, you want to focus on the seams or the joints.

As I have said before.....my videos are not perfect. I make them as a way to share some general information without making them so deep that they can be understood by the person trying to learn, nor some complicated that only a few of us could debate the issue.

Matt, I have received far more positive notes about this video then I have negative and even the negative was simply a clarification....which has now been made.

I have not lead people astray....I have miss-placed a well intentioned comment for a deeper content discussion!

Kindly yours,

Well done John we love your videos, couldnt care less about ASME paperwork, i dont see the others making their own videos ????
You teach us simpletons all about things we never thought about....keep it up !

See ya soon

Mike Pannell

Well, we now have a new contender for the stupidest posting of the day...[i]couldn't care less about asme paperwork[i] just as long as someone is posting videos for the great unwashed and unlearned to be entertained as they critisize those of use who are actually boiler professionals. I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for what John is trying to do in his videos, but he is citing a problem that doesn't exist. I have been at this for two thirds of my life, and apart from the aforementioned Cagney boilers and some ancient heating boilers, I have never seen a long seam done that way. I have seen a lot of forged and fusion welded domes, but that isn't a long seam,by definition. I have also never seen nor heard of a failure of such a seam. This really smacks of crying wolf in order to sell wolf proof sheepskins.

John, show me a historical, full size, steam traction engine or locomotive boiler so built. And, just so the picture taking peanut gallery will know, the advocation of scrapping any and every steam locomotive boiler with a forged or fusion welded seam will result in the end of about most all operable steam locomotive in this country. Again, domes are generally very overbuilt...this is a non issue
.

Dear Mr. John E. Rimmasch

Ok I will bite, could you be so kind as to explain why will the “activities of other boards have an impact on RYPN? Further more would you not agree that safety is paramount for our industry as our society has gotten risk adverse? If the answer is yes to this question then shouldn’t we strive for perfection to minimize any misdirection that might lead to someone making a tragic mistake which would costs us all?

Respectfully,

Robby Peartree

P.S. Since some of you like little quotes, here is one from an email I received a while back.

"The trouble with quotes over the Internet is that you never know if they are genuine."
...Abraham Lincoln

Guys,

Having spent well over 10 years on RYPN, I am an old school guy that simply will not tolerate flaming and ill comments. We need to make sure that we keep it all civil and "up beat" I have in the past and I will again walk away from discussions where by we have lost the direction and intent of RYPN. I simply do not believe that we should degrade people for any comment that is made, it simply is not civil. RYPN is still one of the best civil discussion forums out there and I intend to do my part to keep it that way. Thank you for your support.

That said:

Mike P,

Thank you for your comments, they mean a lot to me and in general, your comments reflect those of most viewers. Please keep watching and enjoy the process of learning.

Jim,

I have seen a number of small locomotives, mostly out of service with forged lap seam domes. I have not come across (other than in the hobby side) a locomotive boiler with a forged lap seam as the ONLY means of attachment. You will see and still do see boiler barrels with welded, or forged lap seams that are then riveted with double or triple rows of rivets with backers. All of these are non-issues. My comments would not remove any thing from service other than hobby type locomotive style boilers with this type of seam, and my comment does not remove these boilers from service, the code and the jurisdiction will remove them. These boilers were outlawed long ago.

Further, I can see what you are saying in that domes are generally over built, however, as a company that has done Form 4's for other organizations, I can tell you that domes are not always over built. We have had issues with domes, dome rivets, dome rivet spacing and dome sheet thickness, so, not all domes are created equal.

Robby,

As always Robby, thank you for the note. Robby, I have watched my video again and I must say, I am not seeing where I have caused our industry to be unsafe. SmokStak is a web forum where the historic Steam Traction group gathers. Often, like with RYPN, the discussion hits on topics that would be of interest for both groups. The tie-in between RYPN and Smokstak in this case is fairly easy to see......I think? Historic Boilers, historic boiler practices, locomotive type boilers......yep, all of these seem to be common topics in both forums. I hope this clears things up.

Robby, since we are so keen on making sure that we educate people correctly and accurately; I am most interested in knowing exactly what Abraham Lincoln thought of the internet! How often did he use it Robby, and can I please have his email address, I have a few questions I would like to ask him! Thank you for you efforts to preserve history.

Kindly yours,

John - you need to give more than serious consideration to working from a script, having considered it several times over before committing anything to tape, and running it past knowledgeable people for their input first. This doesn't speak to a lack of knowledge or talent on your part, just a reflection on the fact that the result you produce doesn't reflect your knowledge adequately due to lack of material organization and presentation. You are shortchanging your own reputation.

I'm struck also by the disconnection between the slick title at either and, and the rambling delivery in between - this is confusing, and leaves the viewer with the impression that what we have here is a sort of amateur attempt at self promotion that backfires.

I'd also suggest you don't "dumb it down" so much or oversimplify as many of your viewers aren't idiots or inexperienced, but most are eager to increase the depth of their knowledge. It makes us wonder if you really do know what you are talking about - and I know you well enough to know you have a lot of good specialized knowledge, and excellent sources.

Put the sape priority on quality in your videos that you put into your work and you'll be fine. Otherwise, don't make videos.

dave

I find it utterly astonishing and down right rude to (A) be called 'stupid' and (B) That these videos are 'dumbing down' anything, clearly John should be making videos ONLY for the secret society of boilermakers to understand and us dumb and stupid people should be kept out of the loop.
I really look forward to the input in at least two new videos by these 'intellectual' boiler professionals, so that John and the rest of us can learn from the depths of their self professed wisdom.

Then we can lambast and criticise them so they stop producing videos too.

So where are they gents ??????????

For Goodness sake this is a great forum dont ruin it.

Mike P

Sorry, but my National Board Commission doesn't require me to make videos, nor do I have the time...but it does require me to have a working knowledge of the ASME, and I have a great deal of respect for "just asme paperwork", as I am required to do.

Forged and/or fusion welded domes ARE A NON ISSUE. Don't make it one in order to create a job for yourself.


And show me anything other than a Cagney that has a forged or gas fusion welded long seam power boiler.

To get this in before the moderators shut down this thread:

Insulting the commentators (i.e. "personal attacks") does nothing for the discussion.

However, there appears to be a quite valid concern about 1) the "professionalism" of the videos in question (sorry, but polish and production values will inevitably improve the reception your message gets); and 2) the actual relevance of the videos in question, considering that it is alleged that this is apparently the proverbial "solution in search of a problem" that apparently doesn't exist in the field covered by this forum, at least in North America. (Lord/Allah knows what we'll find in Cuban, Pakistani, Indonesian, Syrian, or Mongolian back-country.)