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NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
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Author:  kelvindex1 [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
I was on YouTube tonight and came across some video of PRR 1361 in operation following restoration in the late 80's. Being only 30 years old I am not too familiar with some engines that are around today, but not in operation. PRR 1361 was restored and ran. For how long? Who restored it? Why isn't it running today? (Please let's not start a rant about the mis-managed restoration funds about it) What happened to 614? I remember it running, but why isn't it in operation today? I recently saw some photos of NKP 759 running int he 70's for the High Iron operation. Again, what happened to it? Who is taking care of it now and why isn't it running? I am only asking for simple answers just out of curiosity, not to start a battle of finger pointing and blame.

Travis
Author:  daylight4449 [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
From my understanding, the 614 went into storage after it's trips on NJT. The 1361 had some sort of problems with the firebox. As for 759, it suffered freeze damage when the D&H, who would host it for excursions, had a change of heart, and pulled it from warm storage and left it in the cold NY air to basically freeze. Well, that's what I got from the NPS report on the 759. Looks like there were also flue problems while repairs were being made in 1977. Here's a link:
http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_bo ... /shs2o.htm

And here's an excerpt:

"After its last main line excursion, from Boston, Massachusetts, to Montpelier, Vermont, and back, over the Boston and Maine and the Central Vermont in October 1973, Locomotive No. 759 deadheaded under steam to Rouses Point, New York, for winter storage in the Delaware and Hudson roundhouse there, since the locomotive had been scheduled tentatively for excursion duty on the D. & H. the following April. Unfortunately, negotiations for that excursion broke down, and the D. & H. management in an apparent fit of pique had the locomotive pulled out of the promised warm roundhouse storage and set out in the icy winter of upper New York State without draining it. Various pipes, connections, and fittings containing water froze and broke. The Steamtown Foundation sued the D. & H. for its negligence.

No. 759 returned to Bellows Falls towed dead in a train in the spring of 1975. In settlement of the lawsuit, the D. & H. contracted out repair work on some of the freeze damage and on July 6, 1975, a Steamtown crew fired up the locomotive and tested it on the enginehouse lead at Riverside, Vermont. Then it rested unused until the spring of 1977, when Steamtown received a request to use the locomotive in a mainline excursion. Steamtown management planned the completion of freeze-damage repairs and an application to the Federal Railroad Administration for an extension on the deadline for replacing the flues. But when they gave the locomotive a preliminary hydro test a flue burst. Recalling the experience of having two flues blow out while one of Steamtown's older locomotives was in service, and at the suggestion of Steamtown's boiler-repair contractor, Steamtown management decided to reflue the locomotive. The boiler contractor removed all the older flues, and Steamtown ordered a new set. Then sponsorship for the proposed excursion fell apart, Steamtown cancelled the order for new flues, and a partially disassembled No. 759 awaited an uncertain future. She remained in that status during and after her move to Scranton."
Author:  davew833 [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Quotes from the Horseshoe Curve chapter NRHS web page about the mid-'80s restoration of #1361:

"In 1985, with assistance and guidance from Altoona State Representative Rick Geist, the locomotive underwent an assessment for possible return to service. When the assessment revealed it was feasible for a return to service, the Museum approached the City of Altoona. The City agreed to turn over title to the locomotive to the Museum. Conrail agreed to facilitate the removal of the K4 from the Curve. In September of that same year the locomotive was towed off the Curve and into a shop in the Juniata complex. Using a mix of paid and volunteer labor the locomotive was returned to service in April 1987. During that year and the year that followed, a number of excursions were operated on non-Conrail short-lines in the region."

"In 1988, while operating a "ferry" move en route back from York, PA, the locomotive suffered a catastrophic failure of a main bearing and drive axle. This resulted in restricted operation of the locomotive on a local basis. In the Fall of 1988 the locomotive was returned to the Conrail Juniata shop for further assessment.

The assessment coincided with a renewed interest in regulating operation of historic steam locomotives on the part of Federal Railroad Administration officials. That interest triggered several years of debate on how the locomotive should be restored to meet the changing regulations. Intensive inspection and testing of the locomotive followed. By 1992, Museum officials knew that further restoration would be costly - at a minimum $450,000. Fund-raising was undertaken and a major grant was awarded from the Southwestern Pennsylvania Heritage Preservation Commission. Armed with the funding, Museum officials began to look for how best to accomplish the work while building credibility."

In 1994 the Museum signed a contract with the University of Scranton and the Steamtown National Historic Site in Scranton for restoration of the locomotive. The University would provide project management and the Park would provide shop space, equipment and some labor.

In the Spring of 1995 the locomotive was loaded onto several high-capacity flat cars and moved to Scranton where restoration began later that year. A number of dedicated volunteers and two paid staff began working full-time on the restoration. The price had escalated to just under $700,000.

The rest, as they say, is history... 'aint goin' there!
Author:  Gary Gray [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
All of the questions can be answered with the "Search" function up there on the right.
Author:  Randy Hees [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Moderator's note: was Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Issues of large steam, particularly the engines listed in the subject line of his message have a history of turning bad, and ending up being moderated...

As your moderator, I am willing to let the subject go on... but will be watching...

There is lots of good discussions to be had... including about these engines and what has happened. We can try again, but be careful and aware of the rules... Older members need to remember that we add about 3 members a day or so... so many of the new members don't know about the old conversations, and may need to hold back a bit on the comments.

Discussions about the issues around big steam... changing boiler codes... changing insurance issues... changing rules on hosting railroads... economic issues (can you cover costs with a train load of passengers or do you need Bill Gates and Microsoft to sponsor you) are all appropriate... Finding villians is probably not...

Have fun

Your mostly friendly moderator, Randy
Author:  kelvindex1 [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
I appreciate the responses. I wasn't aware of any of the problems with the NKP engine. I could "search" for the topics, but as Randy has pointed out, the discussion of these engines turns bad quickly and I don't have time to sort through all of the negative comments to come up with the answers I am looking for. It was also brought up by Randy, and this is what I am after, that because of changing rules, host railroads and insurance, locomotives the size of 1361, 759 etc. find it challenging to even run them. I guess, even if 759 was put back together or even if 1361 was, where would it run? Can you cover the cost and justify it? Without large donations to some groups, how can you even afford to light the fire in some of these monsters?

To expand on the original topic, why did Souther 4501 go down? NKP 587? Frisco 1522? Again, I am only interested in what they did and where they are now, not who is to blame or anything like that. Is there a future for any of them? Once 587 is restored, where will it run? 4501 sounds like it has a promising future in the NS steam program, hopefully.

In today's railroad world, where can you see a big mainline engine running at speed pulling a large train. Luckily I have seen the NKP 765 group find somewhat of a niche going to smaller, museums and smaller shortlines that can handle an engine that size. Even with all the work they have done to upgrade it, roller bearings, heat sensors and so on, will it ever see an extended visit on a Class 1 other than a ferry move?

I know many of you are faced with this now as you are involved with some of these projects or groups and you can be the ones to provide some insights.

Travis
Author:  dinwitty [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
freight traffic is tighter on the main freight lines making it tougher to work special excusions, why a friendly shortline is your better bet. But it is cool NS is heading a new steam program to run steam again but a different cadre of engines than 611 and 1218. We hope someday 759 can get her feet back, but there are a few other 2-8-4's on the restoration track for future running, such as the C&O engine in North Judson, IN. I have film I shot of 759 way back in its heyday on some excursions and the American Freedom Train.

614 was thought of to run some trips for the Greenbriar Presidential Express, but the group opted to use diesels on the start, 614 might not be ready yet, Ross Roland will have to update us on that he's the -man- on that as he owns that engine.

There are a number of past "classic" excursion engines that ran back then that for some reason do not run today, but there are other engines on the restoration paths looking at potential operation.
Author:  Dave [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
kelvindex1 wrote:
It was also brought up by Randy, and this is what I am after, that because of changing rules, host railroads and insurance, locomotives the size of 1361, 759 etc. find it challenging to even run them. I guess, even if 759 was put back together or even if 1361 was, where would it run? Can you cover the cost and justify it?


Thanks, Travis, for your positive contribution and question. You've gotten a lot of good answers. They stopped because the economic model required sponsorship and the sponsors lost interest when more than marginal operating costs were required to sustain the programming. Mechanical work is just time and money, nothing mysterious or critical about that.

You also seem to have intuited the reason we tend to be wary of some "proposals" that have been posted here which are more foaming dreams and wishful thinking than reality, and made without the support of a thoughtful and rational business plan behind them. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it, but still not everybody would be succeeding in doing it well and sustainably. I used to hope the dreaming posters were actually asking for reality checks or help in crafting a business plan, but their response to realistic replies demonstrates otherwise.

The UP model is working. The NS model is starting and its potential sustainability will be proven or otherwise. We're seeing some occasional event related excursions, but do the locomotives earn enough only working on an occasional basis to cover their operating costs and bank the cost of the next overhaul?

I think we need to stop acting like us and take on a national - or perhaps international along with Canada, Texas and Mexico - cooperative means of fewer operating locomotives running more excursions so each can really earn its keep in turn in many places, and sharing a consist if we want to see a diversity of steam running sustainably on what rails are available again. We're not like England legally, culturally or economically, so don't even think about that model, nice though it may be.

It's up to us to build on what's working and create workable programs that will gain adequate support if we want to see it - and I'm not sure it is within us to do so in outside interests don't step up and ask us to help them with their vision instead.

Yes, the '70's were very special, what parts of them I can remember.

dave
Author:  Steve Freer [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Why doesn't XXXX run anymore?
The best answer to the question "why doesn't (fill in ANY locomotive number here) run anymore" is the following:

1) Interested party does not have title to said locomotive
2) No funding to restore it
3) No funding to operate it
4) No personnel to restore it
5) No personnel to operate it
6) No place to restore it
7) No place to operate it
8) Two of the above
9) Three of the above
10) Four of the above
11) Five of the above
12) Six of the above
13) All of the above

BTW: There is a bright spot in reference to several of the locomotives mentioned: SR 4501 and NKP 587 are both under active, realistic restoration. All indications are these two will soon be removed from the "does not run" list.
Author:  co614 [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Please see www.co614.com

Thanks, Ross Rowland
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Now you have an idea why 1522 is retired.
Author:  Steve Freer [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Frisco1522 wrote:
Now you have an idea why 1522 is retired.


And Frisco, there isn't anyone more disappointed than this 'ole boy from Tennessee. What a beautiful locomotive! The 1522 sure did let folks know she was around...that bark is legendary. I'll never forget the day when the country's loudest steam locomotives passed each other at TVRM's Grand Junction in '94; 1522 and 611 marched past on NS as "little" 610 watched and whistled a salute. I have other memories of pacing 1522 in the regional vicinity of that great big silver arch back in 1990 and 2001 as well. Good stuff. Got several cool sunset shots on the return trip from Hannibal in '01.

co614 wrote:
Please see http://www.co614.com


I haven't given up hope Ross! Keep up the good work.
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Thanks Steve, glad you were able to enjoy our engine. The 1500s were favorites with the Frisco engine crews back in the day also.
Back when the Frisco leased 4 of them to the T&NO and ran them out of Denison,TX I had an old retired engineer tell me the whole town of Denison knew when they left town with a freight train.
Author:  Txhighballer [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Frisco1522 wrote:
Thanks Steve, glad you were able to enjoy our engine. The 1500s were favorites with the Frisco engine crews back in the day also.
Back when the Frisco leased 4 of them to the T&NO and ran them out of Denison,TX I had an old retired engineer tell me the whole town of Denison knew when they left town with a freight train.



That was a piece of history that I had happened upon not too long ago. i wonder if there are any pictures of them running on the Texas and New Orleans anywhere...
Author:  EDM [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: NKP 759, C&O614, PRR 1361 etc.
Add to Steve's excellent list: The astronomical cost of insurance.
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