Reports emerging of an accident at La Ravoire (Savoie) between Chambéry and Montmélian with an SNCF 4-8-2 class 241P number 241P17 - two serious (burns) injuries.

Found this article (in French)...

http://www.ledauphine.com/savoie/2011/08/28/accident-ferroviaire-avec-une-locomotive-a-vapeur-trois-blesses-graves

Even after running it through a translator I'm still not quite clear on what happened, sounds like a flue failure? I don't see any external damage to the engine in any of the photos.

I ran the copy though Google translate one sentence at a time.

Sunday at 16:45 in Savoy, there was an incident in the old steam locomotive of the Association of Railway Creusot. There were 10 volunteers on board of the association of Saone et Loire, all trains. Ils fans were there to operate the machine.
8 were burned, including two seriously.
The incident could come from a problem of excess pressure in the boiler. Les victims were burnt by a jet of hot steam. Two passengers of the engine are free.

The rail accident occurred on the railway in the price (Savoie) between Montmélian and Chamber

The incident of undetermined origin has occurred on an old steam locomotive coming of Creusot (Saône-et-Loire) and moved to Savoy as part of the movie "Navig'Aix" in Aix-les-Bains.

The locomotive is classified "historical monument". It is one of the largest steam locomotivesin Europe and has traveled 1 741 865 km ..

Interview of Lieutenant Eder, commander of the brigade Challes-les-Eaux.

Hello,

If it was a flue failure, perhaps this was similar to the event with the 844 on the west coast. This would be awful to happen on standing still let alone at road speed. I guess the firedoors limit the blast into the cab but by far they are not air tight.

From a safety standpoint, if you have a catistrophic rear flue failure, does this, by default, quench the fire or do you need to drop the fire to protect the crown sheet? Surely you can't stay in the cab if you can get away.

Is this a rare random occurance which cannot be avoided or are there practices that could be done to minimize the risk of this? Are some of the potential causes.....pushing flue time too far?....material defects?....water quality?

Too many questions!...my apologies....but thank you in advance for your feedback.

Regards,

Randy

I got this from the 241P17 website.

http://www.241p17.com/

on home page, click "entrez" (plate under cab at trailer truck)

on next page, click "les actualites" (third item on left side of screen.

I used Google translate to get the basics and tried to fix some of the phraseology and awkward word choices. I'm not an expert translator, just an interested amateur. A few of the phrases were beyond my ability (and are so noted), probably because they are terms-of-art or very idiomatic. Anyway, it proves that railroad crews everywhere are ready to carry out their jobs under the worst possible conditions.

Press Release from Serge Chevalier, President of CFC [Chemins de Fer du Creusot]

Following the accident involving 241P17 on 28 August 2011, I wish to bring the following items to your attention.

Yann Janaudy, technical manager of 241P17 and engineer is progressing well and is in good spirits. He still remains hospitalized but is expected to leave the hospital within the next few days. He should have no lasting after-effects.

I would like to point out that five of the injured were released the same evening at the hospital in Chambéry, another 29/08, and another 30/08. The members of the train crew hospitalized at St. Luke in Lyon were released on 31/08. This satisfactory outcome for the men is a huge relief for all of us, despite the seriousness of the event.

Because my colleagues and I are in favor of CFC transparency, here are the facts. The train was carrying over 400 people between Le Creusot and Aix les Bains. On arrival at the station at Aix, the engine was uncoupled from the train, heading in the direction of Montmélian, so it could be turned and serviced. In accordance with careful planning, only those assigned to technical tasks boarded the locomotive (2 engineers, 2 firemen and 5 technicians). A Montmélian, only the engineers and fireman remained on board the locomotive during the turning operation. Maintenance operations took place normally, the "fire in the morning" [literal of “feu du matin”, probably a term of art, no good translation found] was shaken, the grate cleaned, and the engine refired. The smokebox was opened for inspection and no anomalies or suspicious noises were detected. I even have the testimony of the SNCF security manager who assured me he had seen the crew concentrating on its duties.

4:03 p.m.. Yann SMS told me that all was well and they returned to Aix les Bains. A few minutes later the accident occurred, a sudden and violent projection of water vapor in the cab.

Despite the painful injuries and a crisis situation:
- brakes were applied and the locomotive was stopped
- a rescue call [equivalent of 911] was sent out by a injured crew member using his laptop, allowing first responders to make a quick arrival on the scene.
- the operating crew, although seriously injured, stuck to its job by preventing locomotive movement [loose translation of “en prevenant la regulation”] in order to secure the line. [I’m not sure this sentence is accurate]

From Aix, we managed the situation in an orderly manner, assessing the condition of the injured and making initial contacts for alternative transportation of the 400 passengers. Thanks to SNCF’s quick action, a solution was found, and the passengers were able to board a TGV which made a special stop at Le Creusot TGV. Our car hosts [free translation of “equipe voyageurs”] were certain this change would work. At Le Creusot, CFC, along with the Mayor of Le Creusot organized shuttle buses to meet the TGV.

I will not describe the experience of the end of the day but I want to express sincere gratitude to the association APMFS Chambery for their solidarity, material assistance they provided, and also their support and comfort.

An expert evaluation was held on September 9. The cause of the accident was the sudden break, covering three-quarters of the circumference, of a small fire-tube at the bottom and slightly to the left side of the rear tube sheet. The rupture occurred at about 1 cm from the tube sheet. The final conclusions of the investigation will not be known until later.

Finally, I would like to emphasize the tremendous outpouring of solidarity and the many expressions of sympathy. SNCF and its representatives, the police, rescue teams, and firefighters were great. The City Council of Le Creusot and its effective intervention for charter buses to the Le Creusot TGV station was highly appreciated by everyone. The active support of UNECTO with its president Louis Poix and Maurice Testu whose impressive effectiveness was invaluable. The friendly call from Josiane Beaud, Regional Director SNCF Lyon, was a great help.

Many challenges lie ahead, but considering all of the expressions of sympathy and encouragement, I am convinced that the history of 241P17 will not stop on August 28, 2011.

I think that "fire of morning" is the right translation. It's the weak fire that has to be shaken down in the morning after the fire had been "banked" or covered with coal the night before to preserve some of the heat from the day before. I wonder how "banked" translates into French?

This was the kind of thing I always worried about when we had a cab full of people on 1522, which has a small cab. Thank God nothing ever happened.

you can't predict a near catrostophic failure or how it will effect the fire it could jet out in a narrow stream maybe take aim right at the fire door while steam spreads out in the firebox. Steam hitting the fire may superheat it more, but in this case it may also be boilerwater, but as you know under pressure like a fireless cooker, can expand into steam when met with normal air pressure, this makes failures like this dangerous than just the flue failure. The firebox is obviously open air underneath so all the sudden steam pressure will get shot downward, the probable liquid from the break may douse down the fire but it will still be very hot. Kudos to the crew to do do all they could to do the safe things to get the engine in control. A very steamy and dangerous scene. If the steam drains oxygen from the fire it may help kill it.

Hello,

If this is a fair representative cross-section, the arch potentially had some bearing on the event.

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_coupe.jpg

Perhaps the arch bricks were blown off the syphon tubes? If the arch stayed in place, it would deflected all the spray just above the fire door.

Either way, very, very ugly.

Would x-raying the tubes be an preventative measure? (Obviously the cost may would be excessive.)

Regards,

Randy