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| D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32219 |
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| Author: | railfan44 [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
http://www.durangoherald.com/article/20 ... 39933/-1/s |
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| Author: | Brian Norden [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Here is the press release from the C&TS Commission: Press Release |
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| Author: | tomgears [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
I see where there are some really interesting possibilities here. Now, playing devil's advocate here.... could there be a conflict of interest here in a single company running both of there railroads? |
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| Author: | railfan44 [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Tom What are you thinking about as a conflict? As in monopoly? I can see the opposite. For example, a package deal: 3 nights in a motel and 2 days riding two different railroads. Also there would be technology and knowledge sharing. People that are really good at something, e.g., educational displays or lettering cars, could now also work the other. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
It seems a sensible symbiosis to me also. The railroads are very different in almost every way except in rolling stock. CATS can profit by having the shops, skills and technical expertise not only in mechanics but in marketing (which the state governments aren't much good for) and event promotion that nobody in the US is doing any better than American Heritage Railways. AHR gets a line to run that offers something different than the spectaular scenery at D&S, a differently spectular High Desert run, and unlike Texas State and GSMRR, has a very well equipped shop and expert staff close by, so it won't cost them much to expand. The rest of us win if it sets both lines on a stronger economic footing. dave |
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| Author: | nw2147 [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
My only fear . . . yes, D&SNG has shops/personnel, etc.; but one of Mr. Harper's other "steam operations" - and I use that term very loosely - has not fared so well. Great Smoky Mountain, anyone? I believe I heard somewhere that the iffy-sounding "foundation" he wanted to set up to restore the two steamers there has fallen thru. In my opinion, GSM also has too much focus on events like Thomas, Peanuts, etc. While I am all for bringing more people to see and ride the C&T, and I wholeheartedly support the track rehab work that has made it a smoother ride, newer passenger cars, etc., a large part of the charm of the C&T is its much more gritty, realistic feel, at least to me. I know this will re-open the debate between "attracting railfans v. attracting tourists", but I sincerely hope that D&SNG management does not change the C&T experience. |
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| Author: | David H. Hamley [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
As for the "attract tourists vs. attract railfans" arguement and the use of "special events" the conclusions are set in stone: Special events put butts in seats. Railfans alone will never pay the bills. Did I miss any important points? |
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| Author: | trolleyira [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Now in the long term....................... Restore the trackage between Chama and Durango. Get the Indian Casino(s) to partner and then................. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
GSMRR and both/each of the Colorado lines are very different and, based on my experience, there is no effort to do over any of their other lines in an effort to recreate GSMRR. I sense a respect for the brand and personality of each line, and GSMRR doesn't seem to have found its brand and personality yet, but it has been several years since I visited - done it a couple times, no reason to return based on current programming. No young kids, don't need Thomas, etc. I don't know if steam needs to be an integral part of GSMRR or if there is enough other stuff in the mix to make it work well without it, and apart from just general generic tourists passing by I don't know what the market they serve might be other than for events. I'm sure they have spent a bit of money trying to work that out........whether there's enough local kid market at CATS to support a Thomas or Polar event there as well as D&S or instead of D&S we'll find out. dave |
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| Author: | Mike Swanson [ Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Well, as the only "local" who's posted here so far, I can say that the majority of Chama's residents (the folks in Antonito generally don't care much about the C&TS) are delighted to have Mr. Harper taking charge after putting up with ten years of "non-profit" operators who have acted as if Chama didn't even exist. I would also like to point out to those of you who want to drag out the "tourists vs. railfans" argument that one of the primary goals of the C&TS is to promote tourism and thus help boost the local economy; yes, historic preservation is also one of the goals (and, naturally, one of the main reasons for saving the line in the first place) and always will be. However, the folks who set out to save what became the C&TS knew full well that having a tourist operation run by a contract operator would be essential if the railroad were to be anything but a collection of static displays and buildings, and that having said operation bring tourists into the area and thus help local merchants would certainly encourage the support of the local community. Mr. Hamely has the right of it: Tourists in addition to railfans pay the bills and not railfans alone, period. Pardon my coming across so strongly, but the C&TS is a special interest of mine and I obviously have very firm opinions on the subject. I've kept quiet on the matter since I don't want to start any urinating matches with anyone, but there were some comments made that I simply couldn't ignore. |
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| Author: | Robby Peartree [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Hi All For the record the potential conflict of interest that Mr. Gears speaks of has been expressed by some people who have associations with the C&TS for over 30 years. While I do not want to get into the specifics of their concerns it should be noted that the C&TS has faced challenges for most of its existence. The commission has a task before it that will affect two of the poorest counties of either state. The ability for the C&TS to face some of its issues was summed up best by former commissioner Swartz when he said that he was used to having people work for the same goals. This is something the C&TS has not always benefited from. Discussions with former commissioner Carl Turner put in detail just how much real-estate property in Chama the RR had in 2003. I believe the amount of real-estate actually owned by the commission would surprise many. It has a potential that many may not realize. I do want to state that the C&TS has benefited from great dedication of many of its employees who have faced numerous challenges. The C&TS furthermore the C&TS has benefited from great support from many politicians and the general public. The last time I checked, the Friends of the C&TS an organization just over 20 years old has approximately the same number of members as the R&LHS a group formed in 1921. This passion for one railroad has unfortunately not come without issues and if one is to research the history of the C&TS one should consider using various sources. Instead of endlessly pontificating here about “issues” if you have concerns I suggest you write the commission. The contact information for the C&TS commission is; CUMBRES & TOLTEC SCENIC RAILROAD COMMISSION P.O. Box 561 Antonito, CO 81120 719-376-5488 FAX: 719-376-2545 Email: commission@cumbrestoltec.com Respectfully, Robby Peartree |
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| Author: | Loco112 [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
The D&SNG management will absolutely change the experience of the C&TS! Have you been to Durango since Mr. Bradshaw left? Please forgive me if I seem overly negative, I'm just trying to set my expectations low enough so I won't go nuts when my mind finally reconciles that I am soon going to loose all opportunity to experience that place the way I had, and I have a lot of work left to do there, so this is really going to hurt, and its starting to. I forsee at Cumbres: locked gates, fences to keep us in, guards to keep us out, no measuring of equipment, unfriendly staff, a company policy line of: "no" to be given to rail fans asking any questions, etc.. Choosing AmHerCo to run C&TS is a turn away from the rail fans, and a turn toward mass ridership and theme park advertising and promotions. That does not necessarily have to be bad for us rail fans, but it will be the way the AmHerCo. does things. I'm calling them "AmHerCo" from now on. Anyone who is not a member of the Friends of the C&TS, you might just get access to nothing, except the ticket line. And who knows if Harper will take a disliking to the "Friends". He might decide that they get in his way, and that he needs to get rid of them too. There is no big D&S: "Friends of the D&SNG", is there? So it could also be be bad for the "Friends" too. AmHerCo will stop any informational exchange with everyone: projecteers, historians, authors, modelers, etc.. The blueprints and historically significant papers will be gone in an instant and for good, just like it has all done on the D&S. I would make one real and urgent request/suggestion to the "Friends of the C&TS" (If any of you are listening please take my advise); get all the paper documents, blueprints, notes, everything, and start scanning at a 400dpi or higher resolution or higher in both .pdf and native .tif file formats. Make it the duty of the Friends to scan all the paper treasures there, from the mundane paper to the blueprint artifacts and machinists notes, keep and scan everything, it has value for now and in the future. Keep everything safe and back it all up regularly. Keep backup copies in multiple locations. At some point, try to offer everything in the archive to any one who can cover some inexpensive copy fees. That will at least protect the information and make it available again. Best of luck to all the C&TS loyalists and fans! |
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| Author: | Steve Singer [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
The gates & guards in Durango happened when Mr Bradshaw arrived, not when he left. |
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| Author: | Loco112 [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
Were the guards their in Bradshaws days? I think one was, but I don't remember him being much of an issue to anyone. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: D&SNG to run Cumbres & Toltec |
[quote="Loco112"]Choosing AmHerCo to run C&TS is a turn away from the rail fans, and a turn toward mass ridership and theme park advertising and promotions. quote] This is not a bad thing from a business perspective. railfans aren't worth the trouble to try to attract; they show up anyway,usually complain, expect special access and priviliges, fail to reach into their wallets deeply enough to cover the costs of operation, and generally make trouble rather than rain. Of course, it also is more paranoid than accurate. IF railfans want to matter, they need to step up and multiply and pay more than everybody else. Otherwise, what is the basis of their expectations? i've been made welcome at many places, not as a railfan but as a professional in the railroad museum / tourist railroad industry. It is a difference of attitude, and comprehension of reality. I don't let my love of the business interfere with the business of the business. dave |
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