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Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restoration
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Author:  Mgoldman [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:55 am ]
Post subject:  Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restoration
Checked my calendar - it's not April yet and this looks to be a serious effort with sponsorship from Progress Rail Services - at least in the form of a place to restore
the massive 2-10-4 steam engine, which currently sits in cosmetically perfect condition
in Amarillo, TX.

"The Railroad Artifact Preservation Society is a Texas non-profit corporation whose primary purpose is to preserve, protect and restore Santa Fe Steam Locomotive No. 5000 "Madame Queen"."

Details here:
http://www.railroadartifactpreservation ... ation.html

/Mitch
Author:  Randy Musselman [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
Hello,

Interesting, Progress Rail is owned by Caterpillar.....this is a different twist in their sponsership......compared to NASCAR. Of course PR owns EMD now also. Still getting used to CAT being a serious rail contender.

Did this locomotive run on the Sandusky Branch with the PRR or was that a different 2-10-4 series?

Thanks.

Regards,

Randy
Author:  David Notarius [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
Hi Guy, Great idea, but where are they going to run it? The boys with T&P 610, another 2-10-4 and Coton Belt 819, both had had problems finding places to run. Big engines need main lines. Is the KCS or the BNSF interested in hosting these locomotives? Have fun - David Notarius, London UK, ex New Hope Pa
Author:  daylight4449 [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
This is the open letter from the website. If the 5000 restoration works, then we'll be looking at the largest mainline, non-articulated locomotive in North America. This is something I'm going to hold with slightly baited breath until I see some serious progress. I'm not saying that Madame Queen's restoration won't work. It's a matter of where can anyone run such a large locomotive such as the Madame Queen.



"An open letter from Larry E. Brasher





Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway pioneer 2-10-4, Locomotive 5000, The Madame Queen, is on the road to operating under full power again! The most historically significant preserved prototype of Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway supreme steam locomotive development is being completely refurbished and rebuilt to begin providing scheduled steam powered over the road passenger service.



Locomotive 5000 was conceived as a technologically advanced state of the art working example of single coupled steam power brought to perfection. Originated in the fertile imaginations of Santa Fe Mechanical Department executives John Purcell, Charles T. Ripley and Harold H. Lanning in 1926, complete design parameters were sent to Baldwin Locomotive Works for building in 1928. After completion despite rigorous debate with Baldwin concerning newly required manufacturing improvements, the 5000 began regular high speed freight operations in 1930. As she demonstrated her demanding yet superior powers on the road, Santa Fe operating personnel christened her Madame Queen. Equally powerful 2-10-4s of the 5001 Class in 1938 and the war babies of 1944's 5011 Class followed.



After a quarter century of daily service she was retired in 1955. Fortunately escaping the scrapper, she was donated for static display to the city of Amarillo, Texas. After years of benign neglect, Amarillo businessman Sam Teague, a visionary railfan blessed with foresight and using his own resources, began a decade's long effort to save her. Initially his goal was moving her to a secure location open to public view, and completing a complete exterior refurbishment. Once those two goals were completed, she now stands clean and proud in a fenced park, Sam embarked on the nearly impossible goal of seeing her operate again. The next and final step is now at hand. Sam Teague has nearly reached his ultimate goal.



Sam is overseeing the total rebuilding to operational standards of the Santa Fe's pioneer supreme steam locomotive 5000, the Madame Queen.



By bringing together and utilizing the man power and expertise of The International Brotherhood of Boilermakers, the donated services of asbestos removal provided by P&W Abatement of Amarillo, and the completely unfettered use of covered facilities, including heavy equipment handling, of Amarillo based Progress Rail Services, Sam has created a true "only in America" amalgam of individual private enterprise, organized labor and current manufacturing industry resources.



Progress Rail Services is a wholly owned subsidiary of Caterpillar. Caterpillar purchased Progress Rail Services for $1 Billion cash. The Progress Rail Services car shop in Amarillo, although quite large, is only a small part of the overall Progress Rail Services corporate picture.



Progress Rail Services purchased EMD for $820 million in cash thus EMD is a wholly owned subsidiary of Progress Rail Services. Progress Rail Services now manufactures EMD SD70 locomotives with Caterpillar designed Diesel engines installed. They compete with General Electric and produce both DC and AC versions. Progress Rail Services markets and sells their products worldwide and they have 110 facilities in the U.S.



To encourage this historical effort, I ask you to sustain this endeavor by joining the 5000 Fifty Hundred Team. A new website is in work and will be announced shortly.





Best regards,



Larry E. Brasher"
Author:  David Notarius [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
A Fundamental Point in Railway Preservation! Any group undertaking an overhaul a large steam locomotive (or any steam locomotive) such as the Madame Queen, should really have a plan (and a back up plan) on where they can run it, if they expect people to reach into their pockets for funds. At least let us know there is a plan in place and a plan. Otherwise, you end up with a park locomotive with flu time! I always ask this before donating money or time on projects. Then again, the PR folks at Warren Buffett's BNSF / Berkshire Hathaway could find that a Texan in Texas would be a useful tool. As someone once said (loosely quoted) from the Union Pacific PR department, " Every dollar spent on the UP steam program & excursions is worth $100 in return in public good will and great PR for the railroad". So, Madame Queen 5000 restoration folks, is there a place to run?

David Notarius, London UK, Ex New Hope Pa
Author:  tomgears [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
Well this certainly adds some excitement to the world of big steam. Anything is possible with the right amount of money. I was just at the World Championship Punkin Chunkin in Bridgeville, DE and saw machines that cost $250,000 to do nothing more than shoot a pumpkin 4,000 feet. Also think of the money spent on one single car used in the various auto racing circuits, probably more than enough to restore a large locomotive. Maybe this gentleman in Texas has found the funding to make this happen.
Author:  alcoguy1 [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
First off IF this isn't a complete troll, I highly suggest this group change their name to something other than T.R.A.P.S.

http://www.railroadartifactpreservation ... ation.html


Phase Four:

THE GREAT WAIT:

Fully restored locomotive sits in a warehouse until the roof falls down around it and the tracks outside are realigned because no railroad will run it.


Hope I'm very wrong about this and they already have a signed agreement to run wherever and whenever they please on BNSF. I wunna go easy on this guy, but I think he is in for a rude awakening.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
The point being lost - among the very valid ones about potential for future use, but even more important - is the synergy created among a very diverse group of other organizations to jointly pursue to goal of this one. If she never turns a wheel under her own power, that's not only a victory but a lesson we can all benefit from, and a model we can use for other projects.

dave
Author:  ctjacks [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
I note this website has a copyright date of 2010. Has this been a Ghost Site for a while?
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
tomgears wrote:
Well this certainly adds some excitement to the world of big steam. Anything is possible with the right amount of money. I was just at the World Championship Punkin Chunkin in Bridgeville, DE and saw machines that cost $250,000 to do nothing more than shoot a pumpkin 4,000 feet. Also think of the money spent on one single car used in the various auto racing circuits, probably more than enough to restore a large locomotive. Maybe this gentleman in Texas has found the funding to make this happen.


The problem with this comparison is the same problem that bedevils every last attempt at rail preservation.

Go look on the shelves of your local bookstore or library. You will find books on automobiles, boats, sailing, trucks, and private aviation all (at least usually) outnumbering books on railroading.

Why? It's not that railroading is boring, as anyone who has had their soul stirred at the sight of a "live" steam locomotive panting, or an Acela roaring by at over 100 mph, or seen a freight rumbling up Sand Patch or Cajon Pass or Mullans Pass can attest. It's because YOU CAN OWN AND OPERATE a car, boat, motorcycle, or plane. And minus a few relatively harmless quibbles such as licensing, filing a flight plan, not hitting other things, etc., you can pretty much go wherever your wallet and the existing infrastructure will take you--up Pamlico Sound, across Route 66, etc. Buy a horse or bicycle, and there's even less stopping you.

Yes, you can own a locomotive or car or train. But unless you also literally own the railroad itself, you are always at the mercy and whim of the operators of the infrastructure upon which you want to operate--NJ Transit, BNSF, Network Rail, JR, CSX, Amtrak, Cass, you name it. And absent some massive legislation nationalizing some form of "open access" to an entire rail network to any participant meeting some set of standards--a "solution" as fraught with potential problems as the status quo--that's the situation we're going to be in for some time to come. Even owning the railroad/operation itself isn't always the answer, as seem by the examples of the Ohio Central, Reading & Northern, Iowa Interstate, and a few others.

Do you think for a moment that racing teams with multi-million-dollar infrastructure and costs would exist if there weren't a parallel structure in place to pay them for their trouble with racing prizes? Do you think for a moment that there would be any of the Punkin' Chunkin" Festival if there were a whole section in the Code of Federal Regulations governing such things as inspections, barrel thickness, etc. and licensing of these vessels? Do you think for a moment that "dirt bikes," snowmobiles, and all-terrain vehicles would be anywhere near as popular as they are if they could only be driven on designated compounds or reservations with designated trails, and only after inspection and certification by the property owner?
Author:  CREEPING DEATH [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
I'm glad to see this, I hope BNSF will run her - and they get a good fireman so the boiler doesn't run dry!

Randy Musselman wrote:
Did this locomotive run on the Sandusky Branch with the PRR or was that a different 2-10-4 series?

That was the later 5000 series, the 5000 itself was a one-off.

David Notarius wrote:
Hi Guy, Great idea, but where are they going to run it? The boys with T&P 610, another 2-10-4 and Coton Belt 819, both had had problems finding places to run. Big engines need main lines. Is the KCS or the BNSF interested in hosting these locomotives? Have fun - David Notarius, London UK, ex New Hope Pa


As far as I know, T&P 610 doesn't come close to current FRA requirements, and is very hard on track. My understanding is there was a variety of reasons it ended up stored instead of in use.

CD
Author:  62Hillcrest [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
I've made a similar statement before, but here goes...I run a large, well funded gravel operation, which is right next door to an open field that hosts an antique tractor and equipment show twice a year. Antique Tractor Club President comes over and says, "We'd sure like to come over and run our stuff in your pit" to which I reply, "Sorry, against company policy, too much liability". Caterpillar regional manager comes by and says, "Hey, we'd like to bring over our latest (fill in favorite earth-moving machine) and we'd like to bring along our fully restored, serial #1 D-9, how 'bout that?" Guess what my response is...I think this organization might have a bit of a leg up, being all friendly-like with Progress Rail, who probably has a good working relationship with their customers, the guys that own the track...

Cheers, Dave
Author:  Bob Kutella [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
This is great news and I totally hope something comes of it. My guess is the tab could come to the neighborhood of $2,000,000 depending on how much gets donated. So, do not get me wrong. But such schemes have come and gone in our circle for decades, all well meaning and full of hope and promise. Some of them have actually succeeded in an operating locomotive, even if done on a shoestring. But as others have noted, there are good sound locomotives in operating condition, watching as the calendar pages fly by, and their tube time along with them.

No matter what we all say and think, I doubt any Class I will voluntarily come forward to embrace such operations. Even if wildly successful in the restoration, they remain an unknown quantity, below the radar, and with no experience to promote, organize, or bring trips to fruition. No train to be pulled.

I know this is a singular effort based on the passion for that one locomotive. But it would make sense to me to choose a smaller scale steam project, demonstrate your responsibility and success, and hope to find a branch line or short line to host it. Once your credibility is established as a group, somehow I think it would make others stand up and take notice when you announced the BIG ONE.

Bob Kutella
Author:  KevinM [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
I'm always interested in any kind of effort to revive a steam engine, but after browsing the site describing this one, I'm not left with a warm, cozy feeling.

First and foremost, I had the same basic question as most of the folks who have posted replies here: Where the heck would they run the thing? Assuming that the gentleman who is heading up this effort has sufficient funds, he probably can get the locomotive restored in a reasonable amount of time, but finding a place to operate it and a means for it to earn its keep are another thing entirely.

Aside from that, I was struck by the work plan....not so much by the detail that was on it, but by the detail that wasn't. Some of the most expensive and time-consuming work involved in restoring this machine would include the removal of the flues, a complete boiler survey, repair or replacement of boiler shell segments or firebox sheets, and re-assembly of the overhauled boiler. There's not much detail on those tasks at all. Overhaul of the running gear could also be a major undertaking.

I've slotted this one in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category. A project this big needs a much more detailed business plan if it is going to be successful in attracting partners and contributors.

/Kevin
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hold on to your hat - Madame Queen 5000 2-10-4 Restorati
I know where they can scrape up a good fireman and engineer experienced with Baldwin oil burners. Just sayin.......
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