Hi All

Food for thought

I had a phone conversation with a friend who is a volunteer at a tourist /museum RR and we were discussing many issues when he brought up a comment from ex staff members that concerned both of us after he said it. He brought up that the former paid staff had said that if you had to stop to build up your water level or to build up steam pressure or to recharge an air brake pipe that it just showed that you did not know what you were doing.

While I am impressed with the amount of Ignorance, Arrogance, and Ego it takes to make such a comment, it raises a question, are we allowing economic and egotistical influences to cloud our safety judgment in this industry? Do we allow our emotions to be the sole driver of comments that we do not think through the consequences of such a statement? Have too many of us become so ignorant of the technology that we no longer understand it and its potential dangers and consequences if it is not respected? I will say publicly what I say privately that the friends of steam are doing more to kill it than any enemy. If we only consider the next great photograph or having perfect on time runs then we will continue to do more damage to our self than any other outside influence because we will give them justification that we need to be closed down.

Respectfully,
Robby Peartree

Robert;

As we get further and further away from the generations that ran steam as a full time job, I think it will get increasingly difficult for some organizations to continue not just maintaining the hardware, but the knowledge base needed to run steam power. There are those like Strausburg and C&TSRR that are able to continue training further generations by running and maintaining steam power on a regular basis; but for those that run steam on only occasionally; that knowledge basis could gradually disappear.

That statement would have to also apply to the Creator of steep, high hills, the Civil Engineers who did not level them, and George Westinghouse and other Air Brake designers who didn't make the system leak proof.
I submit that a Civil Engineer who laid out a railroad grade so long that a rule must be imposed requiring a stop to recharge the brake pipe before reaching the bottom did know what he was doing, and made an economic decision to build that way with what budget he had at the time, even though causing an operating restriction on the actions of "the former paid staff ".
In the same vein, the Engine House Foreman or other responsible official who dispatches a locomotive that can't climb that entire grade without stopping "to build up" can also know what he's doing. He may know that the engine crew is paid by the mile ("100 mile day") and would get paid more per mile if given a bigger locomotive with more weight on the drivers. Thus, it could be cheaper to make the train spend more time on the hill!

Many organizations, including businesses of every type as well as non-profit volunteer outfits,
need to have a culture of ( if not a big bold sign );
Check all EGOS and Side Arms at the Gate

How do we ' pay ' our volunteers ?

Every organization has an economics of ' What's in it for Me ? '

Allowing someone to play the role of Big Shot Know It All is, as previously described,
the cancer of precisely what we are trying to preserve.

Everyone wants to Gain Acceptance.
Some volunteers carry more personal baggage and have difficulty achieving this.
To work with managing volunteers ( and highly compensated professionals ) we need
to have some human relations skills.

Believe it or not, we have to educate, and even moreso, indoctrinate our volunteers
into a Personal Maturity and Professionalism of;
1. Knowing the facts.
2. Delivering and portraying them correctly and accurately.
3. Never embellishing or attempting to B.S. their way through.
4. Knowing when to stop when ' spinning a yarn ' or ' edutaining '.
5. Being satisfied that they have done a good job with # 1 through # 4 as their ' reward '.
In achieving this, and meeting the organizations needs and expectations,
they gain Acceptance.

Not in your ' Job Description ' ?
You just wanted to come out on weekends and play with the trains ?

Small organizations mean wearing many hats, sometimes a gandy dancer or
ash cat, a few minutes later, General Passenger Agent or Road Foreman of Engines.
How well do you wear those hats ?

Mr. Peartree discussed loss of expertise in operating steam. I've never touched a steam locomotive, but when I read through books on steam loco operation I am just amazed at how complicated the technology is. I can see it would take years to just get some basic competency down. Here are a few paragraphs from the ICS Reference Library volume on compound locomotives that illustrates some of the knowledge needed by the operator:

"In drifting down-grade, the starting valve should be open; also, if the grade will permit, open the throttle, just sufficiently to keep the relief valves closed. The steam thus admitted into the cylinders will prevent the formation of a vacuum and will assist in lubricating the cylinders and keep them cool. The reverse lever should be carried as near the corner as practicable.
"It is essential that the steam used be as dry as possible; hence, the water in the boiler should not be carried any higher than is necessary for safety. Also, when working steam, the high-pressure cylinder should receive the most oil, but when drifting the low pressure cylinder should receive the most."

Just from those paragraphs, I can see that it takes lots and lots of experience and knowledge to correctly operate a steam loco. Gives me a lot of respect for the old generation of steam engineers.

Not to mention the cantankerous nature of steam locomotives in general, which doesn't improve with age and deferred maintenance, the constantly variable conditions of fuel, water and weather, and the loss of 24/365 roundhouse and ROW support to keep everything at its best, or at least pretty close to it. I don't care how good you are, you will have good trips and bad trips - the best people find good ways to deal with the bad trips without making conditions worse.

I've had 3 switches run through in one day with years of no such incident on either side, and by different operators. I was relieved to have the third one over and done with.

It's the railroad guys. S#*t happens. We can always make more steam but we can't unexplode a boiler.

dave

Let's take this statement and put into perspective.

In hindsight, one would ultimately gravitate towards an alignment with said statement. Normal and proper operation of what I can assume as some form of steam locomotive would suggest that yes, you should not have to ever do any of the aforementioned statement. One would even further agree with the statement if this kind of routine was, well...ROUTINE!

HOWEVER

Preservation era operations are hardly ever error-proof. S*** happens, then you fix and learn from it. If it means bringing your movement to a halt to restore boiler pressure, water and or brake pipe pressure, then so be it. There is absolutely no shame in being safe. Having the wherewithal to acknowledge and address that sort of situation can also be chalked up to a crew that "knows what they're doing". Some operations may actually fall victim to their own success. They experience so little mishaps and operational mistakes, that they become dumb in knowing just how to remedy a slight hiccup when it occurs, which usually leads to some form of unneeded panic. You can study from a textbook all your life on the problems that arise from operating a steam powered passenger train, but nothing substitutes real world experience in dealing with the setbacks that can/do occur.

There are plenty of lesser-known steam operations in this country whom do not get the proper recognition they deserve because they are not of the “known” operators. That being said, they are automatically looked at as a “know-nothing” operation who just happened upon steam motive power and, to invoke the infamous phrase “have no idea what they’re doing”. This assumption is usually untrue, based on ignorance, and often times than not, these organizations have folks that are in fact worth their weight in gold when it comes to knowledge of these archaic beasts we call steam locomotives.

On the other hand…

As much as I’d like not to admit it, there are in fact many operations around this country whom are just unsafe, no matter which way you slice it. It doesn’t take a trained eye to observe some very basic safety concerns, and going along with that, if obvious safety concerns exist, Lord knows what lurks about that is just as dangerous, but hardly as obvious.

Just my .02 on the matter.
<steps off soapbox>

DC

Of course the "you" had to know enough to know that something was not as it should be, and was confident enough in the his (or her) knowledge to shut it down until the issue was resolved...

Great thread... unfortunately there are too many egos to allow us to do what we should or must do to often... be it train operations or organizational issues... same root cause... similar (if different) spectacular results...

Randy

Randy

I have to agree with most of the above comments. But to the list posted I think the number one rule is "TO KNOW WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW". A taller man does not stand shorter by admitting he does not know everything.

Bob Kutella

"if you had to stop to build up your water level or to build up steam pressure or to recharge an air brake pipe that it just showed that you did not know what you were doing." Off hand I would say that is correct. If you can provide a more detailed account of the event(s) then I MAY be convinced otherwise. I have been around enough tourist trains to know there are a lot of unsafe and un-knowledgeable people doing things they should not be allowed to do.

there is no stupid question, we learn something every day even the experts.
One reason this site is here. Were out to spread the info.

You may stare at the backhead of steam locomotive with all the valves and pipes, and damn! whatzat do and this!

yar larnin a startin thars..

A steam locomotive is like a big monster baby creature, tend to it right, it will perform right.

Such occurrences are shameful only if they are tolerated. Anything can happen but I have been around several tourist railroads that have had pressure and water issues on every trip with "seasoned" qualified crew members. Why does this happen? It's the engines fault is often the answer.... Yet I can walk on and have no issue never having even fired a coal burner before.
What is operation managements position on it? F'k it! It's, just a steam engine.... THE SCHEDULE MUST BE KEPT!!!!!
This is beyond bogus, in the steam are such behavior/display of ones inability to do a job would result in termination.
People don't get just how dangerous these machines are, as are firearms in the wrong hands. AND, they don't understand that their ambivalent attitude towards the mechanical and firing practices are the core reason that steam, for them, costs so much to run.
All railroad texts agree that anymore than 10psi pressure fluctuation (some as strict as 5psi) in the boiler is "abuse and shall not be tolerated"

I agree with the quote that started it all.

I've seen situations on some lines that I was not comfortable with, and all you can do is to try to tell the operators what they are doing is unsafe. I by no means can call myself an expert on steam locomotives...but I've been around them long enough and run and fired them enough to know what you should and should not to do when while operating them. I have some some major operators have"ego" issues which blind them to opening their minds to other, and perhaps better, ways of maintaining and operating their charges. I recognized long ago that when training people who will have limited operating days on ANYTHING...steam or diesel, that stopping the train and rectifying the situation is better than accelerating a bad situation and making it worse. Always take the safe course and everyone can get home that night..perhaps a bit later than desired, but safe.

Somewhat off-topic, but relevant: Last July I flew from Little Rock to Los Angeles via Las Vegas. Everything was "nominal" until I changed planes in Vegas. We "pushed back" and taxied out for takeoff. First indication of trouble was when the captain advised us that we were changing runways because of "ugly weather" off the right side of the plane. I didn't take long for the "ugly weather" to be right on top of us, and for our takeoff to be put on "ground hold". So we sat for about an hour and a half while the wind blew and the rain poured. But eventually, the storm moved on, and we took off. After the plane landed in LA, the flight crew apologized for the delay, but as one of the last passengers off, I had a chance to indicate that no apology was necessary, saying, "Where I come from, Safe beats Fast any day!" and getting nods of approval from the crew members.

Many times having to stop to build up steam or water is due to poor fuel. I remember getting coal from a local Illinois mine that was more rock than coal. The coal was so full of impurity's that you had to stir the fire to keep the slag from turning into a clinker the size of the firebox. Yes I had one of those big clinkers.
I remember talking to a friend who ran trains in France in WW-2 who said they carried 4 or 5 pokers & slice bars because the fuel was so bad. That said lack of proper training & mechanical failure can be the cause of steam failure.
I guess each incident has to be looked at on it's own accord & be used to fix the problem that caused the steam failure.

Dave Huffman