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Interesting heavyweight https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32482	Page 1 of 2

Author:

PLATFORMCAR [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:01 pm ]

Post subject:

Interesting heavyweight

Perhaps someone in the know, might be able to answer a question that has eluded me.... In French Lick Indiana, rests this weathered heavyweight.... After looking closely at it, and the window configuration, I have been unable to determine the history, railroad, builder of this car....

Maybe the vast knowledge on this forum might have some information on the history of this unique neglected heavyweight...

Thanks in advance

Dean Levin

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Author:

PLATFORMCAR [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:06 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Interesting heavyweight

a few more photgraphs

Dean

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Author:	WesternStar [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
Railroad escapes me, but the car is a rare Barney and Smith sleeper from the early teens. I have been advised it arrived via private owner at Mid Continent. The interior is tough but in its day it was a real beauty with color glass domes, gas lighting, and more.

Author:	Howard P. [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
Looks like a Milwaukee Road car to me. Howard P.

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
I agree the car is an early steel car built by Barney & Smith, but the three single windows with high sills is a hallmark of the B&S 12-1's, and I wasn't aware that the MILW had B&S 12-1's. I'd say it's a Soo Line car. I have one Soo B&S 12-1 listed as being at Wells, MI... Soo 1237, named BEMIDJI, built by B&S in 1913. As I recall, this car went to Nevada City, MT, possibly coming from the defunct display at Hayward, WI, and then to John Larkin of the E&LS... but it's possible it was traded to someone else. The only problem is, it has the wrong trucks for a 1913 Soo car... but then the Soo did swap trucks. These are the right trucks for the 12-1's built by B&S for the Soo in 1911... and most of those cars I don't have disposition information, other than "retired, 2/62." None of the 1911 cars seemed to have been converted to work service, and three of them went to the DSS&A in the thirties, although two of the three were rebuilt into a six section - coach configuration. I'd be interested in knowing more.

Author:	WesternStar [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
Found my notes courtesy of the fine folks at Mid Continent: It was built for the Soo Line as the "St Paul." It was later sold to the DSS & A and retired in 1963. --Richard

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
Cool. I didn't realize that two of these early steel sleepers had been saved. When built for the Soo as the St. PAUL, it also carried number 1234, and yes, it was a 1911 B&S product, Order No. 2596. After the sale to the DSS&A in 1934, it was renamed MARQUETTE, with no car number, until it was retired to work service in 1957 and and renumbered 845. Apparently it was never actually used in work service, and was sold to Mid-Continent, date unknown. Mid-Continent sold the car in 1983, and it was moved to French Lick, IN. Most of this information came from Ray Buhrmaster. At least the car has a tarp on it, but it looks like it has taken a lot of watter through the window sills.

Author:	filmteknik [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
There are a couple of good online databases for steam locomotives. Is anyone doing one for all existing (or recently departed) passenger equipment? Steve

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
We have a relatively complete list of extant Soo Line passenger equipment in the Files section of the SooLineHistory Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SooLineHistory/ Not totally complete as evidenced by the fact that this ex-DSS&A car wasn't included (note to self... add it), but as far as a general list, I wouldn't have the heart to do it. Most extant passenger car, whether in a museum collection or not, are dissolving at a considerably faster rate than the extant steam locomotives, so there doesn't seem to be much sense in expending the energy when they are going to be gone within our lifetime.

Author:	RichardWilliam [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Another "St. Paul"
There are some interesting coincidences between what’s been posted here about this car, and another Barney and Smith car also named “St. Paul.” The latter is one of the chapel cars built for the Catholic Church Extension Society in 1914 or 1915. It, too, spent some time in Nevada City, Montana, from 1967 to 1996. It eventually went to the E&LS shops in Wells, Michigan, for restoration and eventual display at the Lake Superior Museum of Transportation in Duluth, Minnesota. The latest information I have is 2004 correspondence with Tim Schandel, Operations Manager at the LSRM, who informed me that the car was stored at the E&LS shop in Escanaba, Michigan, awaiting restoration.

Author:	daylight4449 [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another "St. Paul"
RichardWilliam wrote: The latest information I have is 2004 correspondence with Tim Schandel, Operations Manager at the LSRM, who informed me that the car was stored at the E&LS shop in Escanaba, Michigan, awaiting restoration. I thought that Larkin owned the equipment outside the E&LS shops?

Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Another "St. Paul"
RichardWilliam wrote: There are some interesting coincidences between what’s been posted here about this car, and another Barney and Smith car also named “St. Paul.” The latter is one of the chapel cars built for the Catholic Church Extension Society in 1914 or 1915. It, too, spent some time in Nevada City, Montana, from 1967 to 1996... I may be responsible for the confusion, confusing this car with the Soo BEMIDJI, which was both at Nevada City and is now at Wells. The Soo Line St. PAUL appears to have gone from the Soo --> DSS&A --> Mid-Continent --> French Lick, and was never at Wells Interesting side note... Both the Soo Line and DSS&A named cars almost exclusively after on-line communities. When the Soo sold three out-dated steel sleepers to the DSS&A in the mid thirties, allowing the DSS&A to retire the last of their wood sleepers, they were named DULUTH, SUPERIOR, and St. PAUL. Well, the DSS&A went to both Duluth and Superior, so those were OK, but they didn't go anywhere near St. Paul, so they felt compelled to rename that car, choosing to name it after Marquette, MI, the third car on their small roster to carry that name.

Author:	N.C. Guest [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
This is an amazing find! I had no idea a car of this type still existed. It is from the early generation of steel cars with transom windows over each set of paired windows--absolutely classic. Could someone chime in with an update as to the preservation outlook for the car? A sleeper of this configuration of this era, retaining its transoms and clerestory, is true gem and I hope it will take priority in our plans for what to save and what we must surrender to time. Another poster mentioned the need for a comprehensive passenger car database. I and others have posted about such a need before and are working on a project that we hope will fit the bill. Of course it will require the buy-in of many in what we may be so bold as to describe as "our community."

Author:

PLATFORMCAR [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:47 pm ]

Post subject:

Re: Interesting heavyweight

thanks for the kind replies... that certainly was easy.... so if I understand the replies, this car was sold off from the museum into private ownership and shipped to French Lick sometime around 1983...? therefore, if that is true, it has been languishing around with the other neglected heavyweights in French Lick for 28 years...?

perhaps someone is aware of the current ownership and potential future plans for it... ( which from the location and the looks of it... appear at best pretty bleak. )

given the apparent rarety of the car, what was the reasoning in the museum casting it off to French Lick...?

speaking of neglected heavyweights in French Lick... any one heard truth to a story of the private car "Quick Step", ( Clover Leaf RR 400 , Nickel Plate 3 ) being sold to the Mad River and Nickel Plate Museum in Ohio ?

thanks

Dean Levin

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Author:	Dennis Storzek [ Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Interesting heavyweight
N.C. Guest wrote: This is an amazing find! I had no idea a car of this type still existed. It is from the early generation of steel cars with transom windows over each set of paired windows--absolutely classic... Well, actually, the ten section obs Pullman INGLEHOME at IRM is slightly older, having been built in 1910 IIRC. It doesn't look so outdated since Pullman did more rebuilding over the life of the car... Replaced the fake wood siding with flat plate, and the "Gothic" sash with a wide letterboard. This car eventually went to the Illini Railroad Club as their excursion car CHIEF ILLINI, and then to IRM But the B&S cars are interesting in that they show that Pullman once had competition, and have some very different, if more antiquated, styling features. There is also an ex Soo Line AC&F sleeper in captivity; Soo 1253, the BOWBELLS, built by AC&F in 1921 on Lot No. 8971. This car is privately owned, but stored by the Lake Superior Railroad Museum on leased trackage in Duluth. It unfortunately, doesn't look any better than this car.

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