Pennsylvania Trolley Museum has in addition to 50+ trolleys three diesel locomotives that use multiple sets of heavy duty 8V (four cell) starting batteries. In pricing a new set for our under-restoration 25 ton GE we've seen the price of a set of four 8V batteries for the loco's nominal 32V system nearly triple in recent years, especially since we first acquired the loco in 2008. We are also in need of new battery sets for our 1942 Porter centercab (per Navy specs it has TWO 32V sets but could get by with just one set) and a 64V set for our 1930 Westinghouse semi-boxcab Armco Steel B-73.

We are open to suggestions for battery sources from economical suppliers. Reconditioned batteries would be acceptable too.

Try these folks, made in PA, I have found them to be of great help in the past. They do offer seconds, at a reduced price.
East Penn Manufacturing
http://www.dekabatteries.com/default.aspx?pageid=4

Mike Tillger

It might be worth looking into 8 Volt, golf cart batteries. I'm not sure what the Ampacity requiremnts are for the starter on a GE 25 tonner but there are a wide variety of 8V, deep cycle batteries available.

All 4 of our operating PCC's are equipped with these.

usbattery.com is one of many suppliers.

Gord McOuat
OERHA / Halton County

Thanks guys, but East Penn (aka "DEKA") is one vendor who's already quoted us a truly eye opening price compared to what we'd paid in the relatively recent past. Thus far an appeal for donation has fallen on unreceptive ears.

"Golf cart" type batteries would be fine for services such as a PCC car, where the load is relatively constant. These types are also designed for "deep cycling," where they can be discharged pretty well down the scale and not suffer harm from it as long as the discharge was done gradually.

Diesel starting service requires a very different design of battery, one which can supply a huge amount of current for a relatively short time and not suffer any harm. Do that to a deep cycle type battery and you may kill it for good.

Gotta get the right kind of battery for the intended service. For any of our diesel locos that implies one capable of more than 1000A during starting.

I would like to know what you call an eye opening price.

Over 9 yeras ago, I installed a heavy duty set of "Deka" marine batteries in a GE 80 ton locomotive I sold to an grain elevator. We got 8 very good years out of these batteries and had the elevator taken better care of them, I think we could have gotten 2 more years out of them.

In December of 2010 we replaced the batteries with new "Deka" batteries just like the ones we had put in it 8 years earlier and the price had increased by only about $200. over 8 years. I would have to look up the price, but it was around $1,000 for the 4 battery set. If you think that is high, go to Napa and buy a set for a semi tractor, on that uses 4 heavy duty batteries.

With the increase in the price of scrap metal, batteries have also increased. I was getting $1.00 for a scrap car battery and now can get $4 or $5 a piece.

There is an old saying, "you get what you pay for". I want my equipment to start when I want it to start, so I am willing to pay for a premium battery.

East Penn and Johnson Controls are about the only US manufacturers left in the locomotive sized battery market, and many of the automotive and industrial batteries that are out there are rebrands of these two manufacturers products.

PC

The local battery manufacturer takes their standard truck battery case and cuts out the dividers to make it a 4 cell "Tugboat" battery.

-Hudson

Try these guys, Crown Battery.

http://www.crownbattery.com

What is an "eye opening price?" We've seen the quoted price for a set for our 25 ton GE go from c.$1200 to $2780 in less than three years. (from DEKA)

A quote from another maker of such batteries was within a few bucks of this number.

Does that qualify as "eye opening?"

I have been caring for a GE 80 ton centercab for 9 years. I sold this locomotive to my customer and sold the other 2 GE 65 ton centercab locomotives to another customer. All 3 of these locomotives were using {4} 8 volt Deka "Deep Cycle Marine" batteries with great results.

The GE 80 ton had been in storage for 4 or 5 years and as such, the batteries needed replaced. The previuos owner advised me to use these batteries and I took his advice and have been more then happy with the results. When you can get 8 years out of a set of batteries, you are doing good.

In December of 2010 after a little over 8 years of use, I replaced the set with 4 new batteries and my cost was $1,007.60 with the old batteries in trade. Deka shipped these batteries to their dealer in Indianapolis, Indiana and this was my cost picked up at the dealer.

I just called the dealer this morning for a current price for these batteries and the price to me was $1,225.00 not discounting for any trade-in cores.

What you maybe doing, is thinking that you need some kind of gaint locomotive style of battery for this little GE 35 ton locomotive, which you do not. The GE 80 ton has 2 Cummins 335 horsepower engines, and if these batteries will work for this 80 ton unit, they will work for your single engine 35 ton GE.

These are Deka Model 8V195 Deep Cycle Marine Batteries.

We have used the Deka 8V195 successfully for the past decade at the Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum in our 110-tonner (32V system/4batts), two of our 80-tonners (one older 80-tonner with 64V system/8 batts and one newer with 32V system/4batts) and one of our 45-tonners (32V/4batts) seen here in the post to our blog nearly complete in its restoration this past December.



They work and last very well especially when they are used a semi-frequent basis, i.e. at least once a month if not a little more. We do keep them on chargers during longer periods of storage, i.e. the Rochester winter. They do not last as well when not exercised even if charge is maintained, but that is true of most batteries.

The price quoted by AlcoC420 seems to be in line with what we have been paying for them over the years from our dealer in Syracuse, NY. The price has certainly gone up from the sub-$200 range when we started to the $250+ range they are in now, but that are not certainly not the cost of the larger locomotive batteries used in our larger engines which are several times more expensive.

Chris
Rochester & Genesee Valley Railroad Museum

The DEKA model we've been quoted is DL3000AS or AL. This is an 8V loco battery that rates 1275A for 5 seconds at 0C.

We had used the 8V195 in our Porter centercab (two 150 HP Cummins, each with its own battery set) in the past. If you search the DEKA website for 8V195 it comes up "No match." Perhaps they only want to sell you the most expensive model. The set we now have in the Porter was purchased in 2001 and is now life-expired.

The choice of the DL3000AS was based on what GE was orginally putting in the 25 ton model in 1953, when ours was built.

It's likely the 8V195 would do our job, and we'll investigate that with DEKA.

Thanks for the various responses.

On the general subject of batteries - if you can find a local transit agency which is replacing rolling stock, see if you can put in a bid for the batteries that was in the old stuff (...of course, after preserving a sample of the "old stuff"). When the CTA was retiring its fleet of 2000-series "L" cars in the early 90s, IRM got not only a pair of said cars, but an extra set of batteries from another pair; said batteries then went into the museum's Illinois Central MU motor (and maybe the trailer too? Not sure), replacing the by-then-decrepit batteries that came with it.

A good friend of mine works at the Deka plant at Lyons so I asked him to inquire about the availability of the 8V195. He reported back that yes, Deka still produces the 8V195. Most likely, the battery is produced at the Douglas (sp?) Iowa plant that Deka purchased. It would appear that the Iowa plant is producing the smaller production-run batteries and the 8V195 is one of them. The suggestion is to contact your local heavy-duty battery supplier as to price and lead time needed for delivery. Most likely, due to low sales numbers for the battery, it does not appear in Deka general advertising, especially internet-based brochures.

Good luck,
Rob

I'd like to start with a primer on the universe of 8 volt batteries.

Here is the traditional locomotive starting battery. About 30" long, on the left is over 200 pounds, on the right over 300.

This is the traditional type of railroad vehicle battery. I have seen them used in locomotives, passenger coaches, South Shore Insull-era interurbans, Key System Bridge Units. Basically if it has a battery, and a 32V or 64V electrical system, good chance it was built for these.

Of course, batteries have made significant improvements since the 1920s.

They also make 4-packs molded together, these are 32V in one gigantic 1000lb. battery.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/railphotos/341846250/


#2. Golf Cart battery. About the size of an automobile battery, these are 8 volts (4 cells) instead of the usual 6V. Golf carts upgrade to 8-volt batteries so they can have higher voltage without adding additional batteries, re-engineering the battery box, etc. Higher voltage gives less resistive loss for the same power, and higher top speed, which matters as golf carts are evolving into electric "neighborhood grocery run" type vehicles.
More on these batteries -> http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls. ... ttery.html


#3. Marine starting batteries. These exist in 8V because many antique boats still have 32V electrical systems. These can be any of a variety of sizes, as you see here: note the largest looks just like a locomotive battery, same terminals and everything. http://www.usbattery.com/usb_marine_p1.html
You have to look, but marine batteries tend to be BOTH deep-cycle AND starting, since boats often shut off engine and sit around running accessories for long periods.

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Deep-Cycle service means you small amount of current, but you do it for a long time, and you draw down some of the total amp-hour capacity. The typical deep-cycle application is boat trolling or off-grid home power.
Engine Starting means you draw massive current for a very short time, but you only touch the surface of the battery's total amp-hour capacity.

Electric vehicle service (golf cart, EV, battery loco) does both, as accelerating from a stop draws very high current, though not quite as much as cranking an engine over. is very high-current, and it does it all day and consumes a fraction of total amp-hour capacity. s a hybrid, since there are many high-current surges in power whenever you accelerate, though not necessarily as high-current as cranking an engine.

You can buy lead-acid batteries optimized for both at once. But most are not. Mainly, automobile starting batteries are quickly ruined by deep-cycling. Deep-cycle batteries are not designed with high current in mind, just look at the battery terminals. Nonetheless, folks on boating forums are very happy using golf cart batteries to crank over GMC 8V-71 diesels for instance.

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A cold battery has fewer cranking amps. Even worse, you need more power to crank a cold engine, because oil is thicker and you need to crank it longer to get it to fire (especially a diesel).

To make their batteries look better, battery companies rate them as warm as possible for the application.
COLD cranking amps (CCA) are measured at 0 deg. F (-18C) - for automobile batteries.
MARINE cranking amps (MCA) is 32 F (0 C) since boats only work in liquid water.
Locomotive batteries appear to be specced at 70 F (21 C).

Which has more cranking power? 2000A @ 70 f -- or 1150 CCA? You can compare only by guesswork.

That Deka battery is 90 pounds. Its dimensions are 21 x 7 x 11 (almost a mini locomotive battery).
Its CCA is 980. MCA is 1170. Compared to the other Deka 8V marine batteries, it is clearly made for cranking (other, larger batteries have half the cranking amps.)
www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0194.pdf

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We use the big locomotive batteries for tradition's sake. They are (WERE) cheap, and they are bulletproof. They will run a Westinghouse AB control, they will crank a 251. Do we absolutely need them? No.

For instance an interurban, you will not be actuating the HB, HB or M controls until the pole is up and the M/G set is charging the battery. So you don't really need serious amp-hour capacity, and any 32V battery should be absolutely fine.

On the passenger coach, the question is how much endurance do you need on battery-only. If you charge only at the end of the operating day, maybe a lot. If you have a Waukesha, HEP, or you are stationary and can use grid power, maybe you don't need much battery capacity at all.

For cranking that locomotive? Again it's back to the conditions. I agree that Deka should have no trouble cranking a small locomotive. Heck, I think it could start an Alco on a warm day. Other times, well, you just have to figure that out. AC-generator EMDs are actually easier to start, because they went to two truck starters instead of using the main gen as a starter. Would I throw 8 used golf cart batteries in an Alco battery box and give it a shot? Sure -- though I would take all precautions assuming worst possible case - batteries exploding. If we can pick up used golf-cart batteries (that barely make it 18 holes anymore) for $50 a pop - that surely changes the economics of maintaining old locomotives.