I'm an unabashed fan of Southern Railway steam locomotives, and the 722's plight at Great Smoky Mtns RR bothers me... yes it's their engine, and their money- they can do whatever they want too- but damn it, I still don't understand.

Just under $1 Million is what has been bantered around as the cost of restoring her. Another 400k would get that ugly Army engine running as well.

Then last year, management spends $250k on a European trainset.
Now they want the counties to help pay another MILLION to move the trainset and install two turntables...

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/i ... t-railroad

So.... we have a million in one hand to return to life and her home rails a beloved and fairly famous engine... or 2 turntables and a Swedish trainset in the other...

I live two hours away from GSMR. I know which engine I would go see and which one I would not...

I simply do not understand.

Matt

Never make the mistake of assuming that the genral public has any interest in what interests us. For them, a steam engine is a steam engine. Swedish meatball or home grown tomato, no difference.

Think about the boy bands and musicians a 13 year old girl wants to hear - designed and marketed specifically to that demographic, incredibly successful, more annoying than nails on a chalkboard to mature men who know what real music is from the '60's. They know their market.........and so does GSMRR.

Railfans don't count - we show up anyway, and mostly complain about historic inconsistencies. Worrying about attracting us doesn't make sense. If it costs more to appeal to one notoriously cheap and difficult audience as well as the mass market you seek, than to forget about the small, troublesome and unremunerative market and focus on the huge core, why waste the time and money?

Nowhere in their mission statement does it indicate "accurate recreation of the Western North Carolina RR in 1925."

I think you have the wrong yardstick.

dave

Admittedly I might... doesn't make me feel any better!

But still, what am I missing?
$250k equipment purchase plus almost 1.05 million in moving cost and turntables is $1.3 million, which is the current trajectory.

$1 million for restoring #722 and another $400k for the step sister.... $1.4 million.

What crowd are you going to attract with the Swedish set that you aren't going to get with TWO steam engines that "belong"? In the article, Harper clearly states he doesn't need the coaches.

So to me, it's even money. AND you keep history alive and relevant, for whatever that's worth. Even if its not much, it is SOME increment over the general attraction of steam. Plus you end up with two reliable steam engines versus one that is an unknown quantity.

Matt

$450,000 to move the Swedish train to North Carolina? I wonder how much it cost to move it from Sweden? It sounds way high to me.

Matt, I think your math is a bit off. While they didn't use turntables when they ran 1702 before (pull-pull with a diesel on the other end?) it appears they want to do this now, so you are not dragging an idling locomotive for 1/2 the trip, plus crew costs, etc.

-$1.3 million for two turntables and an already-working steam locomotive, or

-$1.4 million for two locomotives that operate, plus an additional $600k for the two turntables, pushing the total to $2 million. Even if you just restored the 722, that would put your costs at $1.6 million. The cheapest solution would be to restore the 1702 (if the purported $400k price is correct) and install the turntables, totaling about $1 million.

As ugly as it is, the Swedish meatball may be the more cost effective solution, if not the most aesthetically pleasing way to bring steam back to the GSMR.

Whatever happened to the "charitable foundation" they established to restore the 722 and 1702?

Also, S-160s are not "ugly" but very utilitarian machines designed for a very specific task.

No, my math is right. I simply didn't include the turntables.
1.4 million plus zero is still 1.4 mill.
I'm weighing roughly equal costs of a European trainset and 2 turntables versus two rebuilt steamers that have history on the line, one of which has provenance that few other locomotives in the country have.

I do like your suggestion about 1702 and the turntables maybe being the best solution...

However "utilitarian" is just a nice way of saying "ugly."

;>)

Matt

How many in this industry, or what ever we call this pursuit right now, would take a trainset anywhere if subsidized to do so?? I guess its good work if you can get it.

As a fan of the excursions with SR 722 in the 1970s, I share your frustration and disappointment. But for one, the bus tour group of retirees from my church won't care about what's on the front end, and the owner of GMSRR gets the package savings (steam plus two turntables) as noted earlier. The same bus group doesn't know from SR 722 or Sweden, just as they don't know that SRR is using steamers from Canada, Colorado and Virginia to pull mostly ex-B&M coaches from New England. This is also true for their ride on the consists on the Durbin operation in West Virginia.

Hopefully the current business plan begats enough cash flow to bring 722 and 1702 on line in the future.

Wesley

Matt, the fact that you are not including the two turntables into the cost comparisons, but using the cost comparisons to prove your "point" does show that you are being biased.

"History on the Line" doesn't revolve a steam locomotive 180 degrees.

I actually agree with Mr. Templin's line of questioning, but that is besides the point.

GSMR=Tourist Railroad (and potential funnel to put public money in private hands) and does not equal a museum. History on the line is irrelevant from the standpoint bottom line.

Perhaps you should be targeting your inquiry to the local governments the RR is trying to tap.

That's my point precisely Wesley... you AREN'T going to attract any more people, so why not spend the same money and get TWO operating steam locomotives instead of one that is foreign and an unknown quantity?

Yes, you do have some operational deficiencies with no turntables, but that has been handled by the line before. I would think that having two engines and no turntables would offer vast advantages over a single engine with TT's that are sparingly used, particularly since you are going to be running only limited steam schedules (and with only one steamer on the rugged Murphy branch, that suggests exactly what the schedule will be).

As far as the remark that I should target my inquiry to local governments, I think you are right... but thanks for letting me vent to my brethren!

Matt

The Swede is the steam locomotive that had been used on the Belfast and Moosehead Lake Railroad, in Unity, Maine. The RDC1 was an ex-B&M unit. At the moment, the tender is outdoors, the engine house is locked, blocked, and sealed. We don't have a great deal of snow yet, so the old girl should be accessible.

This particular locomotive is not displeasing to the eye, but she certainly could be further "Americanized" prior to putting her to use. Had she been a tank loco or something of US background, I might have chased her on weekends, but as it turned out, B&ML ran the Swedish locomotive with Swedish passenger cars, and it left me cold. Other trains were hauled by two GE 70T Diesels or the Budd Car. I live only 25 miles away. It just wasn't interesting to me. For a few years, however, plenty of tourists filled the coaches and trundled along on crappy track at slow speeds, in what should have been a "gold mine" region. It wasn't. Unity is a poor, poor, town, a bad place to start a railroad run, and Belfast businesses complained about the noise of a steam locomotive. Eventually, due to mismanagement, Belfast got the chance to rip up the rail yard and destroy their home road. Now they wish they had it back, as the seaside community recognizes the draw of a tourist train.
Fortunately, some of the equipment has migrated to the Downeast Scenic Railroad, but (fortunately, imho) not the Swedish steam locomotive!
There remains a turntable, loco house, station, venerable coaches, snowplows, and more equipment at the Unity site.

I wish GSMRR best of luck (or perhaps "better luck") with the Swedish equipment, but in truth, if they had acquired a New York Central Hudson, I doubt the Belfast and Moosehead Lake could have done better.

Or, maybe the Swedish loco is more a known quantity than the two inoperable locos that are on-hand?

Are we even certain that the Swedish engine and trainset will be able to run on that track per FRA concerns? Is that engine going to be able to haul those cars on that grade? Is that engine truly ready to run or will it need a gazillion dollars pumped into it as well?

And if anything goes wrong with any of it and it ends up sitting in the weeds...it appears that they are great at taking things apart but not so good at putting things back together.

I do not entirely understand the business plan they have in mind. In this economic climate they want who to pay for turntables, moving expenses and locomotive rebuilds? Seriously?

T7

Weren't we just talking on The Interchange about how great it would be to bring more steam locomotives from China to operate here? We're not so hot about a Swedish engine that is already on US soil? Okay.

The Swedish stuff has ALREADY run on regulated US railroads and is as such a known quantity. Can we forget about that line of nonreasoning please?

Turntables are either useful or not. I have no problem running steam in reverse, seems to do fine at Strasburg, but it isn't my railroad. I'd kind of like to see a 2-8-2T that can run fine either way.......sort of an extended version of commuter 2-6-2T or 4-6-4T types that ran in American service historically, one as close by as the Cliffside (and built by Glover yet!). Again, it isn't my railroad. The plan they have chosen is to require turning at both ends of the prescribed tourist line, so be it. It will give the passengers something interesting to see.

The missing quantities not being considered are having a steam train set ready to run NOW rather than someday down the line, and to own yet another set of rolling stock more than otherwise. More assets that can be put into immediate productive use.....or same assets that could maybe be ready in a couple years, if the stars align? Not really a no brainer, but damn close. I see this as a seperate issue from the turntable thing, or the asking for support to build them, which might not even tie into the fate of the two worn out engines on the premises.

dave