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Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32715		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Just five minutes ago, I had to go looking for an update, and specific information, on a piece that I know is under restoration at a particular operating RR museum. (And I mean "know" as in "saw it with my own eyes, helped get a few parts for them, got photos, etc.")

You wouldn't know it was there from the museum's website. No sign of it. They only list a "representative sample" of currently operating equipment. I had to find my data from a friendly third-party site.

Two possible ways to look at this:

1) If a museum owns a piece, it should be acknowledged, especially if the museum is a non-profit dependent on donations, "public interest," etc. Maybe I want to donate to the cause, take a trip to see it, or include it in a database.

2) It's still under restoration, and the public can't yet ride in it, see it, etc. Why complicate things by "marketing" things that may not be ready for you to see or ride? What if it's disassembled, or hundreds of miles away in a restoration shop?

(And I'm sure that at least once a year, someone shows up at Altoona expecting to ride behind PRR 1361, or at IRM expecting to ride behind their GG1, or at Steamtown expecting to see UP 4017 in steam.)

Thoughts? Discussion?
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Legally: every museum has a right to conceal their collection list. However every Frank Hicks of the world has the right to catalog collections anyway. Trite, right?

But if Frank Hicks is doing it, it is futile for the museum to keep it secret. On the other hand it's also not necessary for the museum to do it. This may well be an instance where a third party can do best. Wikipedia proper does not want museum rosters. But we're in the right ballpark. No need to stick it all on one guy. For things as invariably factual as a museum's collection, the crowd can be highly trusted to get it right 99.9% of the time.

[Edit: correct name]
Author:  Joshua K. Blay [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Having a roster, and easy to find on your website, can me give an extra incentive to visit a museum. I've been to museums, even made repeat visits, to view rolling stock regardless of condition. IRM does this very well, other ones not so much if at all.

Joshua
Author:  Rick Rowlands [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
What is the purpose of preserving historic rail equipment if the public, for whom the equipment is supposedly preserved for, do not know it exists? I would love to see every museum's web site having a complete roster of equipment with the notation stating if the equipment is restored, under restoration, on display, derelict, burned out, etc. etc.
Author:  artschwartz [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
I hope Frank Hicks is not insulted by being referred to as "Dave".
Author:  alcoguy1 [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
...or at Steamtown expecting to see UP 4017 in steam.)

Thoughts? Discussion?


According to each respective museum's website, UP 4017 is in Green Bay, and 4012 is in Scranton. Just sayin...
Author:  derail [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
I can't imagine anyone expecting to see the Big Boy operate at steamtown, steamtown's website has a page for the entire roster and a page where the "operational" locomotives are listed.
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
derail wrote:
I can't imagine anyone expecting to see the Big Boy operate at steamtown, steamtown's website has a page for the entire roster and a page where the "operational" locomotives are listed.


Stranger things have happened.

I'm told that, approximately once a year, some tourist storms into the Mennonite Information Center or Lancaster County Visitors Center (both on the heavily commercial Rt. 30 strip east of Lancaster en route to Strasburg) and attempts to "report" an Amishman or Mennonite that won't cheerfully pose for pictures. The folks in question 1) do not understand that posing for photography is against the Amish religion, and 2) apparently believe that all of the buggy-riding, produce-selling farmers they see are paid actors a la Disney World, Jamestown, or Colonial Williamsburg. At least one case was written up in both the Lancaster and Philadelphia newspapers, as part of introspective articles on whether "Amish Country tourism" is ultimately self-defeating.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Josh Blay is absolutely correct about incentive to visit. A well known locomotive, or the last of its kind, or torn down and between decades (as is often the case), doesn't mean that it won't be foremost in a visitor's imagination. I use pictures of trucks, plates, car designs from all manner of equipment to document, complete my collection, or as a pattern for modeling. I found access at Mid Continent and Steamtown to be advantageous for knowing what's going on and what has happened to some once active steam queens.
Author:  K.R. Bell [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Here's an idea: let's create a section on this website devoted to equipment rosters for individual tourist lines and railway museums? It would serve as a handy clearinghouse of information AND add value to rypn.org as a top-shelf online reference resource.

K.R. Bell
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
K.R. Bell wrote:
Here's an idea: let's create a section on this website devoted to equipment rosters for individual tourist lines and railway museums? It would serve as a handy clearinghouse of information AND add value to rypn.org as a top-shelf online reference resource.


Personally, I love the idea.

But at some point, someone's going to have to oversee this giant "merger" between RyPN, TRAIN/ARM, the NRHS, SteamLocomotive.com/info, PNAEC, and the former X2200South preservation trackers.

So, what we need to start with is an outline of just how much more in hosting/infrastructure/maintenance costs, both financially and logistically, this will cost the current overlords of RyPN. Then we can go to the NRHS, Kalmbach, Carstens, the R&LHS, the Amherst Railway Society, or whoever with the proverbial "tin cup."

Kalmbach could use it as an extension of the Tourist Trains Guidebook. Railfan & Railroad could use it as "bonus material" for their articles, and maybe let an archive of Jeff Terry's column appear, in exchange for advertising or other considerations to be thought of later.

The one problem: I guarantee you someone out there in rail preservation will not cooperate, or even actively hinder your efforts. Just as there are rail museums and tourist lines that weren't listed in the Steam Passenger Service Directory (I remember that the Ohio Railway Museum fell "off the radar" for a decade or more), there will be someone who will either contest listing on privacy grounds or demand editorial control--such as the very problem that started this discussion, someone not wanting the presence of a car listed or acknowledged, because it's under restoration, held together by the termites holding hands, is stored for a third party that has become delusional, has been lost in the weeds behind the enginehouse for two decades, is the subject of a lawsuit over unpaid repairs or storage fees, etc. ad nauseum.

Somebody has to step up and either wrest editorial control or become a benevolent dictator of an editor. And you get what you pay for. I could come cheap, but I'd need what is considered a "living wage". I don't think the NRHS could do that with $2 per membership, and they're getting enough flack with the recent membership fee hikes. Perhaps this is for "Phase Two" of the great NRHS makeover/upgrade, or maybe the R&LHS could counter the NRHS's efforts with a website/mission salvo of their own.....
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Steamlocomotive.com was my clearing house while on the road trip this year. I don't think it gets updated quite as often as it might, but still, it serves as an inventory of most steam locomotives in the nation. If each museum/collection would oblige by listing what's on the property, locos, cars, etc., then list the condition, those could easily be copied and pasted in a section here. What's in the warehouse is often overlooked, and quite often turns out to be the most interesting things on the property!
Author:  David H. Hamley [ Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
If the owning organization is a non-profit charitable and educational entity as defined by the IRS, then any owned equipment is in theory being held in trust for the public. Under those conditions, purposely withholding information on such equipment might seem to violate at least the intent of the IRS rules. In short, the public has a right to know. That 99.9999% of them couldn't care less is not the issue. The organizations thus holding equipment in trust should make some provision for making data available, if not by public display, then at least upon request.
Author:  JimBoylan [ Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
There is a danger that if you list things that you don't want the public to see or ride, that they might be more likely to want to see or ride them! At the Branford Trolley Museum, the insiders already have a hard time convincing the visitors that it is not historically correct to want to ride unusual Summer cars in cool weather, especially if the visitors are too young to remember them in regular service.
Author:  FLO [ Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Your Entire Roster: Post or not?
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:
...
Two possible ways to look at this:

1) If a museum owns a piece, it should be acknowledged, especially if the museum is a non-profit dependent on donations, "public interest," etc. Maybe I want to donate to the cause, take a trip to see it, or include it in a database.

2) ...

Thoughts? Discussion?


Looking at the Code of Ethics for Museums as a guide, I see a few bullet points that probably apply. Section on collections quoted below:


Collections

The distinctive character of museum ethics derives from the ownership, care and use of objects, specimens, and living collections representing the world's natural and cultural common wealth. This stewardship of collections entails the highest public trust and carries with it the presumption of rightful ownership, permanence, care, documentation, accessibility and responsible disposal.

Thus, the museum ensures that:

  • collections in its custody support its mission and public trust responsibilities
  • collections in its custody are lawfully held, protected, secure, unencumbered, cared for and preserved
  • collections in its custody are accounted for and documented
  • access to the collections and related information is permitted and regulated
  • acquisition, disposal, and loan activities are conducted in a manner that respects the protection and preservation of natural and cultural resources and discourages illicit trade in such materials
  • acquisition, disposal, and loan activities conform to its mission and public trust responsibilities
  • disposal of collections through sale, trade or research activities is solely for the advancement of the museum's mission. Proceeds from the sale of nonliving collections are to be used consistent with the established standards of the museum's discipline, but in no event shall they be used for anything other than acquisition or direct care of collections.
  • the unique and special nature of human remains and funerary and sacred objects is recognized as the basis of all decisions concerning such collections
  • collections-related activities promote the public good rather than individual financial gain
  • competing claims of ownership that may be asserted in connection with objects in its custody should be handled openly, seriously, responsively and with respect for the dignity of all parties involved.


Source: (AAM Code of Ethics for Museums)
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