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| Pemberton saga continues https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32816 |
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| Author: | ebtrr [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Pemberton saga continues |
Council, mayor clash over plan to create new rail group in Pemberton Published: Thursday, January 12, 2012 http://www.southjerseylocalnews.com/art ... 166295.txt Pemberton Township Council reaches partial solution in rail dispute Published: Thursday, January 26, 2012 http://www.southjerseylocalnews.com/art ... 938838.txt Pemberton Twp. mayor, historic trust agree to terms on train museum 12:13 AM, Jan. 30, 2012 http://www.courierpostonline.com/articl ... ain-museum Posted: Wed, Feb. 1, 2012, 3:01 AM Move afoot to shift historic railcars stirs friction http://www.philly.com/philly/news/local/138454429.html |
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| Author: | Mr. Ed [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
All of those articles pretty much tell all of what is going on. Pemberton has a Mayor-Council form of government which gives the mayor a lot of power with little to no oversight by the council. At our meeting on Monday, it was related to the general membership that the council has it's hands tied until the mayor askes them to look at a resolution. They cannot just pass a resolution that says the trust must have a new lease that is more favorable to the trust. There are also many different viewpoints on what it takes to change the form of government to Council-Mayor. But I believe that this November, there will be a few new council members because the voters are tired of the lack of backbone by many of the current council. But in the meantime and in between time, we need time to move the equipment and our rails and ties out. The mayor had the public works use their huge front end loader with forks to move ties and rails to the front of the property as shown in the picture in one of the articles. It was reported Monday that there are now ruts in the hiking trail that run up to 8" deep. The trail is now temporarily closed to all hiking by the township. With the warm weather we are experiencing, the ground is wet and muddy, not frozen. So at this time, it doesn't look like we can make the mayors deadline to remove the 10 pieces. You just cannot get the heavy equipment in there to move this stuff. So now is the time to send in your donations to help us purchase the Mount Holly station and get our cars moved. I'll get an address posted for that purpose if the mood strikes you. All donations are deuctible. So if your having a good year and need soem deductions, please keep us in mind. Later! Mr. Ed |
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| Author: | Tom Parkins [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
I don't have a horse in this race but I have followed the soap opera on these pages. I really have to ask....The plan is to move most equipment to MT. Holly. But yet the trust has not yet raised the money to buy MT. Holly. One of the articles also stated $80k for the move of equipment. As stated in the Philly.com article.... "If the agreement is finalized, we can get back in there and begin raising money" to move the cars, said Tamn, 77, of Mount Holly. "We are putting in for grants and soliciting donations." "We have an agreement to buy the Mount Holly station" - site of three restaurants and a thrift shop in recent years, Tamn said. "The trust would operate two rail stations. "The one in Pemberton would have local, regional and railroad history, and would be a gateway to the Pinelands," he said. "The Mount Holly station would have railroad and local history." Preamble Question: Did I read that correctly, was it reported correctly? Tom's Dumb Question #1. How much is the Mt. Holly Station and how much $$$ do you really need to raise? Dumb Question #2. What is Plan B if the funds aren't raised for movement by May 1? Dumb Question #3. If you made a donation to the township of Pemberton in an amount similar to the acquisition cost at Mt. Holly and the move, would the mayor reconsider? Tom P |
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| Author: | Mark Trebing [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
I said that I would post a report after the PTHT meeting on Monday. I think that the move to Mount Holly of most of the rolling stock could be a good thing. There appears to be much less land, but the town may be more welcoming. I hope that in the long term the Trust will purchase land to store the collection. I think that we have collectively learned that lesson and I hope that the money can be raised for the land purchase. At the meeting, Mike Tamn was optimistic that Mount Holly wanted another historic attraction in the town and that it would be possible to get corporate donations from companies with local operations. Mount Holly has made an effort to promote the Historic Mill Race Shops, the historic prison, and an architectural walking tour. There are houses in many architectural styles, some dating back to the early 18th century. They also have a variety of festivals and events through out the year. There could be some real synergy there for the Trust. The New License Agreement with Pemberton Township. Copies of the proposed license agreement with Pemberton Township were handed out at the meeting. It was not the final version, as there are some typos and contradictions. It remains to be seen whether the Township will compromise. I hope they will be magnanimous in their victory. Particularly worrisome is Article 6.C. Quote: Operator currently maintains more than two (2) railroad cars on the Property. Operator shall remove all railroad cars except the two railroad cars identified in Exhibit B (the "Excess Railroad Cars") by no later than May 1, 2012. Upon execution of this Agreement, Operator shall provide ______ with bills of sale for the Excess Railroad Cars from the Property. ______ shall hold these bills of sale in escrow pending the removal of the Excess Railroad Cars by the Operator. If the Operator fails to remove the Excess Railroad Cars from the Property by May 1, 2012, then title to the Excess Railroad Cars shall pass to ______, who shall cause the removal of the Excess Railroad Cars from the Property immediately thereafter. At the meeting Mike Tamn said he did not expect the ground to be passable before June or July. Of course the ground could freeze again this winter, but will it still be frozen when the Trust raises the money to move the rolling stock? Another problem is metal theft. At the meeting we were advised to be on the lookout for a silver Nissan Frontier pickup, with NJ license plate UNT-43H. There would be no difficulty identifying the thief, because immediately prior the first theft he had a conversation with one of the members about the collection and the nature of that pile of metal over there. Parts for complete switches including frogs, points and machines were stolen. On another occasion a pile of tie plates was taken. Some of the stolen materials were moved to a more accessible location by the Township. They had been stored down the trail, further than metal thieves were likely to go, or know about. (Incidentally the metals, along with piles of ties, now hem in the rolling stock and will have to be relocated in order to move the cars.) It would be nice to try to better secure the remaining material, but as Ed mentioned, it is closed to the public. The Township has not tried to prosecute this person, in fact, it has been reported by Trust members that the police do not respond to calls when he is seen on the property, and the Trust appears to not have the money to pursue the issue in superior court. Those of you reading this may have some suggestions on how to deal with the problem. PM me and I will share Mike Tamn's email and phone number. -Mark |
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| Author: | Nova55 [ Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
This entire saga just sounds like the beginnings of a rather large lawsuit.. |
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| Author: | Mark Trebing [ Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Tom Parkins wrote: Preamble Question: Did I read that correctly, was it reported correctly? It seems reasonable to me, and there may be an agreement to acquire the Mt Holly station. As of Monday there was not yet an agreement. Tom Parkins wrote: Tom's Dumb Question #1. How much is the Mt. Holly Station and how much $$$ do you really need to raise? At the meeting on Monday, there was a ballpark estimate of $22,000 to move the equipment to Mt Holly. A lot depends on whether the Trust needs fork lifts, cranes, or builds a loading ramp. And how much site preparation is required. The last time I looked on http://realtor.com the asking price of the station was $90K. There has not been a successful business in that location in 15 years, and since I looked real estate prices have dropped a lot. The address is 25 Madison Ave, Mt Holly. A cursory search does not show a current listing. A donation of the property might be possible. Tom Parkins wrote: Dumb Question #2. What is Plan B if the funds aren't raised for movement by May 1? If there is a Plan B, the leadership of the Trust has not yet shared it. I have suggested that since the Trust has a legal easement for exhibits behind the Wawa , we should move the cars there and put up signs describing them. Wawa is likely to be looking for zoning variances to add a tank to sell diesel, and for a new Wawa in Browns Mills (part of the township). It may not be practical to try to use the easement, causing trouble for Wawa from the township is not a winning strategy. Tom Parkins wrote: Dumb Question #3. If you made a donation to the township of Pemberton in an amount similar to the acquisition cost at Mt. Holly and the move, would the mayor reconsider? The Township wants to swap the land at the station in Pemberton with Burlington County for land adjacent to the municipal building. They are not interested in selling. It is questionable as to whether the county wants any rail cars on the property. The mayor wants to assert control over the Trust. This is not really about making a reasonable agreement. It might be more useful to convert the money to cash and burn it than to offer it to Pemberton Township. At least we would be warm for a while. -Mark |
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| Author: | CP O'Shea [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Nova55 wrote: This entire saga just sounds like the beginnings of a rather large lawsuit.. Or just another page in the final chapter of the equipment's life. The fact that: 1. The trust agreed to a deadline it already admits it can't make ... 2. Wants to move the equipment to another piece of land it doesn't own ... 3. Doesn't have money to buy the above, or to move the equipment ... 4. Signed an agreement with a hostile politician that transfers ownership of the equipment to another entity if they fail to meet the deadline ... pretty much means this stuff will end up becoming razor blades and kindling. At this point, I have to wonder what on earth the leadership of the trust is thinking ... because they are so out of touch with reality that it is astonishing. Because of the timeline, the best thing they could do right now is to pick out the two prize pieces to save at the current location. Put all the excess equipment up for sale or auction, and help find the pieces a new home where they will be safe and/or cared for. Take the sale/auction proceeds and restore the two pieces that remain. Set aside the rest toward a fund dedicated to purchasing the land in quesion. Only AFTER they have land that they own outright, should they revisit the idea of acquiring and restoring any equipment. Three months would be pushing it IF they already had the land and the money to move the stuff. Throw in trying to raise funds to do both, and this is one recipe for disaster. |
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| Author: | Mr. Ed [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Walk a mile in my shoes..............as the saying goes. In the limited time frame and space here, the entire story about the mayor cannot be set into words. So CP, you have no idea what you are talking about. The trust is walking a very thin line on this matter. I have seen many such circumstances where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I hope that you and your organization, you do belong to a museum or historic organization, right, never run into a situation like this. In the current form of government, the mayor can do just about anything he wants, and he is. So short of suing the township, there really isn't much that can be done. The council gave the mayor the power to negotiate a new license with the trust. His version of negotiation is to take his offer or leave it. Now that's negotiating! So if you really want to help, please feel free to send you tax free donations to: The Pemberton Township Historic Trust PO Box 1647 Browns Mills, NJ, 08015 And yes, we do have a plan but since the township admistrator found this web site, telling you what our plans are is not in our best interests. Later! Mr. Ed |
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| Author: | Les Beckman [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Mr. Ed - Can you tell us if the Trust has decided which two pieces of equipment will remain in Pemberton? Les |
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| Author: | CP O'Shea [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Mr. Ed wrote: Walk a mile in my shoes..............as the saying goes. In the limited time frame and space here, the entire story about the mayor cannot be set into words. So CP, you have no idea what you are talking about. The trust is walking a very thin line on this matter. I have seen many such circumstances where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. I hope that you and your organization, you do belong to a museum or historic organization, right, never run into a situation like this. In the current form of government, the mayor can do just about anything he wants, and he is. So short of suing the township, there really isn't much that can be done. The council gave the mayor the power to negotiate a new license with the trust. His version of negotiation is to take his offer or leave it. Now that's negotiating! So if you really want to help, please feel free to send you tax free donations to: The Pemberton Township Historic Trust PO Box 1647 Browns Mills, NJ, 08015 And yes, we do have a plan but since the township admistrator found this web site, telling you what our plans are is not in our best interests. Later! Mr. Ed No, it appears I know exactly what I am talking about. You admit there isn't a whole lot that can't be done, and that the mayor has been a hard liner all the way. Yet, the Trust still dilly-dallies around with pie in the sky ideas that they don't have the time or money to pull off. What part of reality don't you guys get? The trust signed an agreement it admits it can't abide by. That's not very smart. Neither was bringing in piece after piece of equipment when told to stop ... which is what set this whole thing off in the first place. The whole, "You don't know" argument doesn't work, because we're not the ones who went crying to everyone how evil the mayor is being. YOUR group caused its own problems with leadership that overstepped its bounds, and YOUR leadership has now signed a bad deal. YOUR leadership still can't grasp the graveness of the situation and has its sights set on something it likely can't do in the time specified in the contract. Sorry if I'm the one who has to be so blunt, but perhaps your closeness to the organization has skewed your perspective a bit. Your organization is equally as at fault here. But, let me guess ... we'll hear crying about how bad the mayor is when the equipment gets seized and scrapped, right? Never minding the fact that the trust HAS an opportunity to find safe homes for it, but insists on following "Hail Mary" dreams instead of reality. |
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| Author: | Mark Trebing [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
CP O'Shea wrote: YOUR leadership has now signed a bad deal. Not true. As far as I know, no agreement with Pemberton Township has been signed. At last Monday's meeting it was stated that the agreement would have to be voted on and approved by the membership. The final version of the license agreement had not been negotiated. No such vote has taken place. I have not stated that an agreement was signed. Please keep in mind that not signing an agreement could lead to worse results. There is no point in making angry assertions on RYPN. It will not save the equipment. It will not improve the situation. If you give the Township ammunition, it could make things worse. Personally, I am trying hard not to post anything negative. Unless I think someone on RYPN may have a useful suggestion. Or they may be willing to help with the problems. The only Trust members here are JR May, Mr Ed and myself. No one in the Trust leadership and no other members will ever see your post. -Mark |
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| Author: | JR May [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Mark: I wouldn't consider myself a member at this point. I paid dues once years ago and that was it. I enjoyed working with you, Ed and Carl the couple of times I stopped out, but I suspect this fiasco has cured me of ever volunteering again anyplace. I admit to being very supportive of the move of the 45 tonner into the site, but that was based on the idea that the property was owned by the Trust, which now we know it was not. I also didn't have the information going back years, even to the previous mayor, dealing with the excess equipment on the site. There are a couple of realities here. The location is great for a small museum facility. The easements are a great historic save that the Trust should be proud of. The crew is short handed for the number of pieces on site. So, bite the bullet, look for homes for the equipment that can not stay, use the money from their sale and the sale of the rail to do a first class job on the remaining equipment restoration and site landscaping. Mike had great thoughts on recreating the various structures. Use some of the money for that kind of work. Take the high road. And if you need a park train to run on the site to raise some funding, I have three to choose from. J.R. May ex-Member of the Trust |
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| Author: | CP O'Shea [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
Mark Trebing wrote: Not true. As far as I know, no agreement with Pemberton Township has been signed. At last Monday's meeting it was stated that the agreement would have to be voted on and approved by the membership. The final version of the license agreement had not been negotiated. No such vote has taken place. I have not stated that an agreement was signed. OK, so the trust hasn't officially signed off on it, but why would they come to a tentative agreement (pending approval) that they know they can't meet? They are setting themselves up for failure by doing so. Quote: Please keep in mind that not signing an agreement could lead to worse results. I understand that ... but the trust needs to take a good, hard look around and understand the gravity of the situation. It does no good to sign an agreement and then waste time hoping for something that won't happen. Trying to sell and move equipment doesn't happen overnight either. At this point, the trust has to decide which option has the higher probability of success, and go "all in" on the choice. The pending agreement doesn't give you time to try "A," and then choose "B" at the last second. Trying to do that will set yourself up for an epic failure. Quote: There is no point in making angry assertions on RYPN. It will not save the equipment. It will not improve the situation. If you give the Township ammunition, it could make things worse. My earlier assessment was not an angry assertion. It was based on reality, and what geniune options the trust has left. What hurts your organization more, is known trust members continually bad mouthing politicians in forums your group KNOWS they watch. If anyone is giving the township ammunition, it is your fellow members who keep slamming the mayor every chance they get. That could very well be one of the reasons why he is so hard-line, because he views your group as being unreasonable. Quote: Personally, I am trying hard not to post anything negative. Unless I think someone on RYPN may have a useful suggestion. Or they may be willing to help with the problems. Help doesn't always come in the form of a check. Help sometimes comes in the form of an honest outside opinion, and a reality check. Some of your fellow members may not want to hear that, but the preservation community is much better served by at least having the chance to save some of the equipment, rather than let ego and emotion get in the way by following a bad choice that results in it getting scrapped. Quote: The only Trust members here are JR May, Mr Ed and myself. No one in the Trust leadership and no other members will ever see your post. -Mark Which, honestly, doesn't matter. As voting members, you should be insisting on the group following a course of action that leads to the greatest probability of the equipment being saved. It may not be the choice that everyone in the organization wants to hear, but it will be better in the long run. To use a bit of an analogy ... even the worst football coach knows there are times when it is wiser to drop back and punt, instead of going for the hail mary. Does the current situation leave a lot to be desired? Absolutely ... but the pending agreement doesn't give the trust time to dream. If they want to honestly save the equipment, they need to take action to secure it now ... which might mean having to sell it to someone who can tuck it away safely. |
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| Author: | steamtown observer [ Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
So the plan is to buy the station in Mt. Holly and move 10 pieces of equipment there while keeping the Pemberton site going with two pieces of equipment. Both station would be museums open to the public. Aside from the money questions and the time restraints two questions come to mind. First has anyone checked the zoning or otherwise spoken to anyone in authority in Mt. Holly? It appears the trouble in Pemberton started when more and more equipment showed up. What is to prevent Mt. Holly from having a similar reaction? Second and more importantly I went back and read a lot of the many postings at the Railfan.net blog for the Trust. A constant theme is people showing up and finding the museum closed followed by Trust members bemoaning they don't have enough people to keep the museum open with any regular hours and only a handful of people to do any restoration work. t seems like most volunteer time has been spent digging up old foundations and the turntable pit at the site. To be blunt if you can't staff one station museum wth volunteers to keep it open how the hell will you keep TWO of them open? |
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| Author: | Mr. Ed [ Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pemberton saga continues |
For over a year there has been a full time worker in the station. Again, we do not post each and every little thing that is done here on this board. The volunteers that were showing up on Saturdays were doing what ever was needed, whether it was working on restoring a piece of rolling stock or cutting the grass. And the ash pit was dug out three years ago. If you have a better idea on how to utilize our work force, like maybe some of the things that you do at your facility, I am more than willing to hear them. Later! Mr. Ed |
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