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| steam engines dumped in river for flood protection https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32862 |
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| Author: | dinwitty [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
this showed on the lost engines group recoverable? Group, The following excerpts are from the PRR-FAX yahoo group. A new roster of locomotives was published on the site and one member found that 2 H6sb locomotives were dumped in the Allegheny River near Braeburn PA in 1936. Current satellite views on Google earth possibly show 2 tender frames submerged in the river. I had contacted scuba people in the area, but never heard back from any of them. Is there anyone with resources on this group to help investigate this finding? Thanks! Dave Wilson Hello all... I noticed while looking thru the roster that a couple H-6sb's that had been retired in 1935 were dumped in the Alleghany river in 1936 for use as a wall during a flood at Braeburn, Pa. I wonder if they are still there....probably badly rusted maybe.Or perhaps they were removed during WWII or later for the steel. I looked on google maps and could see what looked like were tender frames in the river. So who knows. Til later Hank Mummert Hi all... Do a Google map search for Braeburn,Pa. It will list Braeburn, Lower Burrell, Westmoreland. When the map comes up you'll see a red "A" point on the map.Zoom in as far as it will go. Just below the dam and on the east side of the river you will see a pond next to the river and the road (Lowe Rd)between them. Just off shore in the river is a small green plot of land.Slightly to the left of this and towards the bottom of this little plot of land you will see what look like some sort of tender frames. At least thats what i see on mine. Til later Hank Mummert Group, this would have occurred a two weeks after the St. Patrick's Day Flood of 1936 on 3/27/36. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_Flood_of_1936 These are the locomotive numbers: H6sb #9371 H6sb #9081 Dave Wilson Frames in Allegheny River photo As soon as the moderator approves it, I took a screen shot of the Google Earth images showing the two frames in question and posted them in the group photos section.� You will be able to see them in the Photos section in the album FRAMES IN RIVER.� The frames are circled in white. Being from the railcar fabricating business, at first glance they look like they could be frames from some sort of rail car from the early 20th century, but they are too distant to confirm anything rail related in the river. Scott Trostel Joel, Let me know if this link works. I think this is the location they are talking about: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=211408386196133197741.00045e6807c4f705fd7d6&\ msa=0&ll=40.6119,-79.716645&spn=0.00055,0.001084 Dave Wilson Hi... Yup that where i've been looking. Keep in mind they "could" be tender frames... until someone can confirm if they are not we don't know for sure, but the picture of what every it is and the location fit. for all i know they could be a old house trailer frame. til later Hank Mummert If the scale on google earth is accurate, the frames are about 20' long. Would an H6sb have a 70F70 tender? If so, an 70F70 tender is 27' long which is close.... Dave Wilson |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
A later report on the flood activities shows PRR placed three hoppers full of stone in the river at that point. They could be H6sb's, but more likely are the remains of hoppers. Someone will, no doubt, check it out this summer. |
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| Author: | bigjim4life [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
I may be guessing, but is this where you are referring to on Google Maps? 40.611868,-79.716872 |
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| Author: | jasonsobczynski [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
All, Was "Lower road" once a railroad? Otherwise, it would be rather difficult to have positioned locomotives or even ballest to dump in the river. Cheers, Jason |
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| Author: | Mike Tillger [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
The PRR had tracks on both sides of the river. The tracks were on the opposite side of the pond from Lower Road and below (south) the pond they would have paralleled tight up against Lower Road |
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| Author: | Trainlawyer [ Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
Having overcome my initial angst at even having a topic concering PRR steam locomotives which were attempting to emulate submarines - A competent wreckmaster can move anything anywhere and the larger and more awkward the item the more fun he is having. To parahrase Archemedes "Give me a cable long enough and a place to anchor it and I can move the world." GME |
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| Author: | Brian Hebert [ Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
There appears to be a third object of the same size upriver on the same side of that island. |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
"Give me an imagination large enough, and I'll make it out to be intact Pennsy steam locomotives rather than three hoppers full of rocks." You may quote me. |
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| Author: | u25b [ Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
A very similar thing occurred in New Zealand with several now extinct types of steam loco. One, K88, has been returned to service some time ago. It can be done. And I believe this river is tidal- salt water! Wes |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
I have to laugh, since as soon as I saw the title, the first thing I thought of was these very engines! I grew up in that area as a kid, and my grandfathers both worked in the steel mill directly across the river from the supposed location they dumped the engines. I heard the story many times as kid, from them and others in the area. Of course details and location were always vague, but it was a pretty consistent rumor in the area. Would be fun to see what's really there all these years later! |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
Mike Tillger wrote: The PRR had tracks on both sides of the river. The tracks were on the opposite side of the pond from Lower Road and below (south) the pond they would have paralleled tight up against Lower Road Could there have been a second track that ran along where Lower Road is now? I'm pretty sure that mill had tracks in it at one time. It looks quite reasonable for there to have been a track running right along the bank at that point, and along the river of the mill. I'm not saying there was for certain, it's been too many years, but I think it's possible. Look at the single road right next to the river along the mill and see if you don't agree that could easily be a former track grade? |
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| Author: | Bobharbison [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
u25b wrote: A very similar thing occurred in New Zealand with several now extinct types of steam loco. One, K88, has been returned to service some time ago. It can be done. And I believe this river is tidal- salt water! Wes Wes, I presume the saltwater river you mention is the one in New Zealand? The Allegheny is a long, long, long way from the ocean. It flows into the Ohio and then the Mississippi. Maybe the engines washed up in New Orleans? |
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| Author: | Ron Travis [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
What is the documentatin that locomotives were dumped in the river? The person reporting this said that he noticed it while looking at a roster. Does this roster state that two class H6sb locomotives were dumped in the river? What is the wheel arrangement, weight, and date built of PRR locomotives class H6sb? |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
Ron Travis wrote: What is the wheel arrangement, weight, and date built of PRR locomotives class H6sb? Modest-sized 2-8-0. approximately 205,000 pounds (345,000 including tender), built 1905-1913 as Class H6b, rebuilt with superheaters (and gaining ther "s" in the class) in the 1920s. PRR H6sb 2846 is in the RR Museum of Pa.; many of the 2-8-0's in service today or recently (think Gettysburg/H&BT 38, SR 630, Grand Canyon/Mt. Hood 18, etc.) are comparably sized. For the record, this was kicked around for a while in the PRR-FAX Yahoo Group, the one that's a de facto extension of the PRRT&HS' I don't recall anything really conclusive either negative or positive coming of the discussion with regards to whether locomotives were there; it was speculated that what was visible could be at best freight car or tender frames. |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: steam engines dumped in river for flood protection |
The tendency amongst people such as ourselves is to fly off the deep end, talking about "the three H6sb's in the Allegheny River". Before this gets too far along, let's re-state a few facts: there are what appear to be steel frames in the river, alongside what appears to be a road bed. The steel frames are of a size which would match those of a tender or freight car of the period. There is a record of three retired H6sb consolidations having disappeared from the official records at the time of this flood. The Pennsy also lists three hoppers filled with stone as having been tossed into the river at the time of the flood. No boilers, drivers, or other steam locomotive parts have yet been observed. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to find three classic steam locomotive in the drink, but my frontal lobes tell me not to get too excited until hard evidence is brought to bear. See, there once was a quarry...... |
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