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Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
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Author:  Matt Bumgarner [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Hi everyone-

The Alexander Chapter-NRHS will start the cosmetic restoration of Virginia-Carolina (Chemical) #50 in the next few weeks. We have a pretty good handle on what needs to be done, etc, and thankfully, the car barn should be erected by the fall, so she won't be in the open for too long.

However, we are having some discussion- The engine's jacketing is in rough shape and the lagging underneath is 99% gone- poof- disappeared, thus we have no abatement issues.

Should we put new jacketing back on for the display, or not?
Any consensus or ideas?

On the common sense thread, part of us see the argument for being as authentic as possible while another part asks why trap condensation between boiler and jacketing?

As you answer the question keep in mind that a) Yes, the loco will be covered except for at most 6 months; b) of course we would keep the old jacketing as patterns, even if we don't put any back on; c) yes, we will properly observe any abatement control issues/laws/standards; d) we *would* like to return her to steam one day, but we won't even know if that is feasible for a couple of years, so nothing there short term absent a winning lottery ticket or mega-company sponsor.

As always, thanks in advance for your thoughtful and constructive replies.

Matt Bumgarner
Alexander Chapter-NRHS
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
If you can, clean up the boiler shell as clean as possible and put a good paint on it to stop corrosion, and if it were me, I'd put new jacketing on it. Engines without it look like plucked chickens.
When Frisco restored 1522, they left a 3" air space and used galvanized for jacketing. Lasted many years.
Author:  John Risley [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
To me it is not a right or wrong question. I tend to look at things not as a rail fan as much as from a mechanical point of view, so the perspective is free and you get what you pay for! If it were me I wouldn't bother with it. Personally I like looking at boilers and find it interesting to do a little CSI work and find all the old reparis that many might miss, you can't see that or any other thing such as extreme corrosion damage or no damage when covered. Point is you can see it when left off. Most tourists and railfans do not look at boilers in the same way that I might. To me the extra work involved isn't worth it most of the time. Now if it is going to be a polished show piece in a huge well lit building such as Museum of Science and Industry or the UP Big Boy in Green Bay maybe I would? The Big Boy was not jacketed when I saw it last, and is very facinating to look at old repairs too. What ever decision made there will be a group that thinks you should of done differently. As stated I find bare boilers more interesting, but will be first to admit I am an odd ball and have to strive to keep my thoughts and interests "within the box". Regardless the good news it will be under cover.

Cheers, John.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Look back in the articles archives and you will find one outlining the Gainesville Midland project in Gainesville, GA. A new jacket was made from paintable galvanized steel and installed over styrofoam sliced into narrow planks to use as spacers, leaving enough air flow gaps to let moisture go away. The boiler shell was cleaned, treated with OSPHO rust converter, than painted before jacketing, if I recall correctly....it has been a while back.

dave
Author:  Ron Travis [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
I would repair the jacket and put it back on with the extra precautions that Dave mentioned. It may be true that a lot of people would not miss the jacket if it were gone, but I would like them to see the engine and know that nothing is missing when they see it.
Author:  Richard Glueck [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Steam locomotives look better with jacketing, period. It was put there for a purpose and the story includes that part of history. Fabricate new jacketing, it makes the story complete, it enhances your display.
Author:  J3a-614 [ Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Subject to financial considerations, I'd restore or replace the jacket. That way, you have it available if and when you get to do more with the locomotive, such as restoration to operation.

You might say the best way to keep parts available is to have them on the engine. It's harder for them to get lost that way, and that includes jackets.
Author:  dinwitty [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
just don't put the insulation in, your not running the engine and it will just hold the acidic rain water.

rust proof the boiler, and paint/seal the jacket.
Author:  Bobharbison [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
I agree that the jacketing should be restored or replaced, it's part of the engine's history, and if your intent is to show how it looked in service, that's an important part of the display.

Dave mentioned Styrofoam (presumably the heavy duty stuff they use for insulation, not walmart beer cooler grade). I've also heard of places using wood, though I don't know if that raises other issues or not. In either case, the gaps mentioned are critical, to allow for proper air flow.
Author:  Doug Debs 2472 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Right now everyone on this discussion board knows that steam locomotive boilers were lagged and jacketed when in service. But the public no longer remembers this. And as time marches on, even folks in the RR preservation world may not always remember the details either. So ideally put the (repaired or reproduced) jacket back on, per the above suggested methods. The closer you can restore the locomotive so it looks like it was in service, the better.

I've run into this lack of memory this year on a passenger car restoration project at Niles Canyon Railway. We're restoring the windows and window hardware on an "all-steel" (except the window sash & armrests) wide-window Harriman coach, S.P. 1949. Almost 500 coaches, chair cars, etc were made in the wide-window version from 1909 thru mid-1912 for S.P., U.P., and I.C. After mid-1912, the basic Harriman coach design was changed to paired narrow windows. When these cars were in common use (i.e. through the late 1950s), exactly what sort of window pinch latches and sash counterbalances could be determined just by looking at one of these cars. But now there are only a few cars left with the window original hardware... maybe as many as 3 that I've been able to find. If these last few survivors had been modified (i.e. air-conditioned or gutted out for conversion to open cars), the information would be lost. So for the sake of future generations, it's best to replace with in-kind hardware and materials (so long as it still preserves the car/loco) to serve as a model for future restorations.

- Doug Debs
Author:  J.David [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Greetings:
Over the years, I have used pressure treated wood and styrafoam as spacers between a properly prepared and painted (of late I have been using Sherwin-Williams "Macro-Poxy) boiler & firebox and new jacketing. I have used a number of different types of sheet metal succesfully (but I prefer the "Paint-Lock types).
The main thing is to leave a little space between the boiler and the spacer so water won't be held and air can circulate.
If you go to the ARM website, you'll find a little booket "Displayed Steam Locomotives (Their Care and Maintenance)" which is downloadable and although a bit dated (especially in re-insulation), might be useful.
J.David
When I restored the EP&SW No.1 for the City of El Paso in 2002, I found the insulation to be wood (Labloly Pine). We reused as much of it as possible and found a source for replacement peices. Since the climate is dry there (and the locomotive displayed inside), we insulated the entire boiler. The boiler jacket was true "Russia Iron" complete with manufacture's stampings in Cyrilic. We were able to reuse most of the original jacket, but decided to paint it a closely matching color for a uniform appearance.
JDC
Author:  robertmacdowell [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Correct me if I'm wrong, steam locomotive jacketing has two parts: insulation lagging; and a sheetmetal cover to keep weather off the insulation. The lagging is the moisture problem, and is only useful for operational engines. Could not the lagging simply be omitted and retain the sheetmetal cover?
Author:  J3a-614 [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
"Could not the lagging simply be omitted and retain the sheetmetal cover?"--Robert MacDowell

Robert, that's the idea behind the jacket-with-spacers comments above. The spacers are needed to give the jacket its proper profile, since it will lack the support of the lagging that would be underneath it. Otherwise, the jacket has to rest at least on the top line of the boiler, which would put it about 2 inches too low. On top of that, most jacketing isn't stiff enough to hold its profile by itself; it's just sheet metal, which can be pretty bendy.
Author:  Brian Norden [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Years ago J. David Conrad wrote a little booklet entitled Displayed Steam Locomotives: Their Car and Maintenance about preserving park locomotives. It was first published by Illinois Railway Museum in 1974. Then later (20+ years ago) ARM did a reprint of it when the AAM asked the ARM to give a presentation about preserving large outdoor objects.

I have a copy downstairs of the original IRM printing. Title page say "No rights reserved, reproduce at will."

I will scan this little (12 pages + covers) booklet into a pdf file. It may be few days before the project is done. Send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a copy.
Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Static steam loco- ditch the jacketing or not?
Dave wrote:
Look back in the articles archives and you will find one outlining the Gainesville Midland project in Gainesville, GA. A new jacket was made from paintable galvanized steel and installed over styrofoam sliced into narrow planks to use as spacers, leaving enough air flow gaps to let moisture go away. The boiler shell was cleaned, treated with OSPHO rust converter, than painted before jacketing, if I recall correctly....it has been a while back.

dave



Dave,

That is exactly what we did, we used "galvaneal" versus "paint lock". The galvaneal is mush more conducive do to the manner in which the surface coating is applied.

Cheers, Jason
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