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| An Interesting Train Order https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33245 |
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| Author: | railfan44 [ Fri May 04, 2012 12:11 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | An Interesting Train Order | ||
A friend just sent this to me. It was written at Palistine, TX just after the Pearl Harbor attack. I never thought about this type of WWII impact on the railroads. Somebody saved this. Thanks to whomever!
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| Author: | filmteknik [ Fri May 04, 2012 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
Sad. Arrested just for being of Japanese descent. And we know the hysteria would only get worse. Steve |
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| Author: | Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Fri May 04, 2012 12:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
The cynical skeptic in me points out that these things can be easily forged on blank pads after the fact. Did we not have a discussion somewhere about a form that later appeared to have been filled out for someone's model locomotive? Motivation? Well, imagine what this would bring if being bought for a WW2 collection or museum...... Is there supporting documentation or provenance? |
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| Author: | sbhunterca [ Fri May 04, 2012 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
Do the MoPac employee's timetables from the period list the dispatcher initials/ names? Do the train order (real or fake as it may be) initials match any of the known dispatchers? This might be a quick check to see whether the document is worth checking into. Of course new dispatchers could have appeared after the ETT was printed, but it might help. You would think more of these orders would have survived if they were really issued. I think many crew members would have kept such an order following such a momentous event in the world's history! On a side note, it doesn't appear to have been rolled, folded, stapled, or handled with dirty hands... Steve Hunter |
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| Author: | softwerkslex [ Fri May 04, 2012 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
Yes, separating fact from theater is important. News reports, police records would help. Take a look at the date and time. Hawaii is six hours different, so this is supposedly about 5 pm Hawaii time. Did they even have their act together that soon after the attack? However, maybe this reflects independent, vigilant action. Why is it only addressed to north bound trains? |
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| Author: | wilkinsd [ Fri May 04, 2012 2:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
I'm going to have to pull out my "Rights of Trains" and talk to a friend who is a MOPAC TT&TO expert, but I am thinking that a Form 19 is the wrong kind of order for this, as a Form 19 would have goverened movement of trains. Instead, the MOPAC and other railroads used a different form to send messages not relating to train movement and traffic control. That seems like that would have been a more appropriate method to pass messages to trains. |
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| Author: | Ray Reter [ Fri May 04, 2012 5:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
filmteknik wrote: Sad. Arrested just for being of Japanese descent. And we know the hysteria would only get worse. Steve Keep in mind the era. There weren't any TV stations, commercial radio did not have satellite feeds, the internet was a few generations away, and most people got their news via newspapers and newsreels in theaters. Even placing long-distance telephone calls was a bit of a chore in those days--even if one had a telephone in their home to begin with. As information was released about the event it was inevitable that fear of the unknown would find a place to flourish. -- Ray |
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| Author: | railfan44 [ Fri May 04, 2012 6:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
I've asked my source to see if he can check the authenticity of this train order. But the way things go round and round in the Internet I doubt he will have much luck. Anyhow it has made for an interesting conversation. |
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| Author: | JimBoylan [ Fri May 04, 2012 7:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
Could there really be an order number 620 in one day? That's about an order every 2-1/2 minutes! |
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| Author: | Richard Glueck [ Fri May 04, 2012 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
The order is a little too well packaged for my liking. Given the date, I doubt orders to segregate Japanese citizens could come through quite that early. Second of all, what right would train crews have to limit another person's rights without a warrant or order in hand? I understand the temper of the times, but I'm leery of this particular order. I am not calling the posting individual a liar, as it might have been found by him and created by another person, years ago. It's just...too perfect as a historical document. |
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| Author: | p51 [ Fri May 04, 2012 9:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: An Interesting Train Order |
Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote: The cynical skeptic in me points out that these things can be easily forged on blank pads after the fact. Did we not have a discussion somewhere about a form that later appeared to have been filled out for someone's model locomotive? Exactly what I was thinking as well. It’s common for people to take WW2 Army message pads and write all kinds of stuff on them and try to pass off the carbons as ‘original orders’ with no way to know if it’s writing from the time period or not (as the paper and carbon are original). That said, I can’t say it would be impossible that right after Pearl Harbor for someone to write that, especially in the Midwest where you wouldn’t normally encounter a lot of Japanese.
Motivation? Well, imagine what this would bring if being bought for a WW2 collection or museum...... Is there supporting documentation or provenance? |
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