First, I want to open with a big Thank You to the NS Executives who took the leap of faith and made the decision to try steam again.
That surely had to be an interesting discussion at the board room table.

Second, I think its important to consider that NS just MIGHT be ''testing the waters'' to see how everything goes,
with the possibility of future expansion, and -dare I mention- perhaps even that big engine with the red stripe...?
Maybe this is the wrong conclusion, and they will go dormant again, after this big Anniversary year's system-wide employee specials.

BUT:
in my opinion, it is extremely important for those of us who will be trackside, to:

(1) Mind Our Manners. Don't blatently trespass on RR property. Don't climb on equipment or signals just to get ''that great shot'' (or any time, period). If given the opportunity, say ''Thank You'' to any exec's who are there helping to make the day happen. Don't yell and scream when someone walks in front of your photo when the engine is standing still. It could be an exec who agreed to do this, that you are screaming at.
I'll never forget when that exact scenario took place at Roanoke on 1218's debut weekend!

(2) Police our own Ranks. If some foamer is seen doing any of the above, try and stop them! Same with the ''civilians'' who come out to see maybe the first steam engine they have ever seen. Don't let them stand too close, or on tracks, or get hit on the head by a crossing gate.

Lets try to be civilized, and not act like a bunch of primates.

As The Reading used to say on their Iron Horse Ramble flyers:
''With the Right Response, there Could Be More''

Lets all show NS the right response, and maybe there will be more.

The trespassing and subsequent liability risks were a large contributing factor to the original demise. So, I say we all need to take it one step further. As stated above we need to "police" the masses from doing things NS would not appreciate and if something is said and they begin to do it anyway....... Call the police! Even if it gets them arrested, so what? One lawsuit and it could all be over again.

Cheers, Jason

I would change "One lawsuit and it could all be over again." to One lawsuit and it will be over again. The issues with foamer responsibility for their own actions plague steam guys and steam operators all the time. The railfans want to see steam, but the actions of some say otherwise.....and it's those actions that lead some to always come up with an excuse as to why we can't have an alive and vibrant mineline steam program here in the U.S. If N.S. gets a bad tase in their mouth again, I don't think that there will ever be a second second chance. This effort needs to work (IMO).

Join this. I am

http://www.protecttheline.com/

Well, let us consider that it's not only card-carrying "raifans" that do stupid things and take risks, but also members of the general public. After all, I see no indication that the people who get hit by Acela trains while walking on the Northeast Corridor with iPod earbuds on were railfans.

So, to minimize risk to NS:
*All runs should run with no prior public announcement.
*All runs should be made at night, so as to dissuade photo- and video-crazed members of the public.
*No employees other than those specifically trained to run the locomotive should be allowed anywhere near the train or locomotive, as the mission is not work-related.
*The locomotive and any related cars should be painted in a fictitious road name, so as to not draw attention to the railroad as a potential litigant.
*The train should be painted "safety" fire-engine green with yellow and black stripes for maximum visibility.
*And finally, with a historical nod to the pioneers of steam at the Rainhill Trials in England in 1829, the locomotive must effectively "consume its own smoke" so as to not cause any accidental respiratory or opthamological distress.

Do you think I'm being sarcastic?

Think again.

ADM4:

You? Sarcastic? Naw.

ADM4,

While your point is made, and under laboritory conditions correct, "innocent intentioned" railfans present 99.9973% of the potential risk. Don't kid yourself......

Cheers, Jason

Like button!

I have started to notice that you can really tell those of us who have practical experience from the knowledgable (yet armchair bound) rail enthusiasts from comments like the above.

Hmmm......

Definately agree with Jason on this. In 15 years, I have yet to see the general public (non-railfans) create a problem on a photo line trying to get that "all important shot". I have yet to see a member of the general public climb a signal pole to get a shot. I have yet to see the general public running crossing gates right in front of me with video and still cameras hanging out of every window while doing 70 in a 30 to beat the train....so they can get a shot. There's my point ADM4. When train crews see this kind of thing going on, it sours everyone on ALL railfans. Railroad managers and railroad lawyers especally tend to object to that kind of behavior on railroad property. Especially when they feel they are doing the railfan comunity and the public a favor. We don't need to be able to see this from both sides....because WE are not running the excursions, and it is not OUR definition of who and who is not a railfan that counts. And as sad, or as wrong as some people may think it is, experience dictates that it is not the general public that causes these problems. It's the 99.9973%

I'm sorry, but I've been "trackside" chasing trains for 30 years or so. And, yes, I'll plead guilty to having climbed a telephone pole in my day, or felling a couple (invasive species) trees a few days in advance of a photo opportunity.

I was unaware that a subscription to Trains or Railfan, or membership in the NRHS or R&LHS or rail museum or whatever, required a massive, scarlet "RAILFAN" embroidery or tattoo on one's person while chasing.

I speak from personal experience when I say that I have seen just as many "boneheaded" actions by the general public as I have seen by "railfans", assuming that we are distinguishing somehow those with a deeper (hardcore?) knowledge of railroading from the folks who just show up with a camera and their kids trackside. I would suggest that the "general public" is even more dangerous to themselves in such an environment than the guy who may know, for example, the conflicting movements on the line (thanks to the timetable, scanner, or simple experience), the typical speed of trains going through, that you don't walk on the tops of rails, that trains occasionally dangle loose straps, etc.

I've been in situations where it was painfully easy to tell the real railfans from the public. Railfans don't insist on putting their (often-unhappy) kids on the front of the steam locomotive for a picture without the knowledge of the crew. Railfans don't normally put pennies on the track. Railfans don't use the railhead as a tightrope replacement. And we long ago figured out that WAY too many folks have the "pace the train with a video camera" thing down pat, especially since there's now seemingly a video camera in every box of cereal these days. And judging from the sparse information given in the photo captions I see, the "urban archaeologists" that go trespassing to take pictures of derelict rail equipment and facilities aren't what we would call "railfans."

The most epic story along these lines was related in an early issue of Railfan--a woman so engrossed in photographing (as I recall) the steam locomotive at the front of the American Freedom Train (or possibly NKP 765) that she didn't hear a Chicago-area commuter train crawl up behind her, and was oblivious until the conductor opened the front door of the cab, leaned out, and literally tapped her on the shoulder.

I'm even willing to concede that half or better of the more extreme stuff is done by what we would call "card-carrying railfans," if for no other reason than we are the ones driven by determination, passion, and knowledge. We know that climbing the tree or cliff, or securing a rooftop vantage point, will result in a better photo or video. We know where the mid-point of the steep grade is for maximum sound effects. We're the ones crazy enough to head to the middle of nowhere rather than share the same easily accessible overpass with the kids screaming "WOW, MOMMY, LOOK!!!!!" and the adolescents hollering profanities as they cluelessly wave their cell phone in front of your camera.

But to attribute "99.9973%" of the ill-thought-out behavior that could potentially shut down a steam-based PR program to railfans bespeaks either a willful ignorance of the fact that the public can be enticed by big steam (or even railroads in general) when it is publicized as a public-relations effort, or a malicious and/or jaundiced "world view" of the railfan community.

And, for the record, I have had a railfan friend of mine, a member of my NRHS chapter, killed while railfanning. He darted into traffic on an overpass during a train chase in New York State. And it was an ordinary day on the railroad, no steam or special movements involved. His son is still a member and railfan.

You should see the sights from inside the cab as you're tooling down the RR.

Thank you for proving my point



No scarlet "railfan" required......The obligitory railroad hat (most likely from a railroad that's been dead for years) covered in pins from every tourist railroad/museum within a 500 mile radius, along with the scaner and radio antenas hanging off the car, along with the 2 or three still cameras and tripods along with the ever present video camera, are a bigger "scarlet railfan" than anything else that could be used to advertize the fact that a railfan is present.




I have yet to see them (the general public) climbing signal poles, telephone poles, cutting down trees, and getting abrasive to eachother in a quest for a picture.....you are still trying to clarify whay YOU would call a railfan, but to the magangers and the guys in the cab....we don't care what YOUR definition of a railfan is V.S. what someone elses definition of a railfan is. We care about running trains SAFELY from point a to point b. Some of us even like to have fun when we're running steam. We care about not going through the mental anguish that comes with hitting, hurting, and or killing someone (I have friends who this has happened to more than once).




Well....what can I say. If the shoe fits.....see below......





I am very very sorry about your friend. Sensless loss. I am not saying that all railfans are bad. But when you have people who run the trains saying "these are the reasons we're not running trains" you can't say...."that's not true, the reason your not running trains is someone elses fault". For the second time. It's not about what or who YOU classify as a railfan. It's about actions that group people into that class weather they are General Public in your eyes or not.

Last year I was out waiting for the Twin Cities & Western 20th anniversary special train to pass by in Chanhassen, MN. Me and a few other fans were at this grade crossing with the special approaching when a daisy picker in a red sedan came along. The driver did not stop until he saw the gates were halfway down and almost on top of his hood! Amidst yells from me and everyone else he backed up and the train (which included two C&NW bi-levels!) passed by safely.

I'd say the general public is worse than the nutty fans out there IMO.

Sure hope NS's new steam program picks up where the old left off!

Fortunately, I was at work last night, so I could not post my initial reaction to the comments above, and wind up in an endless debate.

True colors have shown through.

My point is: REGARDLESS if its a foamer or general public, if we see something happening that could cause a problem, try to stop it, and hopefully contribute to the success of the excursion program.

Excuse me now, I'm gonna go check all my cereal boxes for video cameras.

A couple things you will never get from the general public:

1995: Railfan going ballistic on Lackawanna Ave bridge in Scranton because Milw 261 was magnetically relettered "DLW 1661" for the trip. (If he only knew it had the bell and whistle from a Pocono, but then again that may not have affected his "shot".

In recent years I've had to deal with the "general public" around at least two projects/locations with which I work as a volunteer. It's been my personal experience that the "public," at least of late and where I've been, feels even MORE "entitled," or fearless or stupid or whatever you want to call it, than the railfans.

Recent example from just today: Checked out three "trespassers" on the property of a streetcar museum. When I inquired as to whether they had checked in with the Visitors Center before wandering around the shop (I knew full well, they hadn't, because we watched them pull up and park), the one guy pulls out a "D.C. Special Police" badge in a professional leather case. I say "Fine, let me take the badge number and cross-check it with the retired police officer working down in the Library right now," they beat a hasty retreat. Yeah, it was a fake, and I knew it.

The problem that you're stuck with is that people are always going to do stupid things no matter how many times or ways you warn them. An average of a dozen or so people die at the Grand Canyon every year from falls "(Didja get the picture yet? AAAAAAAAAHHHH....."), exertion, dehydration, accidents, lightning strikes, etc. Do we close off the Grand Canyon to all because of the risks of stupid people?

Furthermore, the other extreme of "self-policing" is the arrogant control freak who uses this "safety imperative" as an excuse to boss around not only other railfans, but innocent "civilians" as well. And I've seen or heard about such "revenge" against arrogant railfans as slashed tires, or a scoop of coal or a wrench aimed at the windshield at speed. That's as bad behavior as that which we're condemning.

Do we, as a railfan "community" (such as it is, in reality) need to "behave" around railfan events staged by the likes of UP, NS, or whoever? Undoubtedly. Are we empowered to take action against those who misbehave? No.

Can we set good examples of behavior for the general public? Undoubtedly. Is there a darned thing we can do about the general public who chooses to do things even more stupid than we would ever do? No.