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WMSR 734 & Timing
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33398		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  TylerWV [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  WMSR 734 & Timing
Greetings all,

Caught the 734 returning to Cumberland yesterday while travelling through Cumberland and wow, she doesn't sound good. I noticed on videos from late last year and the current year that the timing just didn't sound right, but in person it sounds even worse. Does running the locomotive in this condition long term cause extra wear or additional running gear issuses? Is there a reason they wouldn't have addressed the problem by now?

Tyler

Attachments:
File comment: WMSR 734 returning to Cumberland 6/3/12
wmsr2.JPG
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Author:  Frisco1522 [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
I don't know about running gear issues per se, but it plays hell with power and fuel/water consumption when the valves need squaring.
Author:  Donald Cormack [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Proof that lack of PROPER maintenance can destroy an engine...
Author:  wilkinsd [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Donald Cormack wrote:
Proof that lack of PROPER maintenance can destroy an engine...


Ok, let me get this straight. Poster 1 states that he notices that the valve timing on the 734 appears "off" when in person, and that this problem has grown worse over the past year or two.

Poster 2, who actually worked on a steam locomotive noted that while he isn't a specialist on running gear issues, off valve timing does play havoc with the fuel and water consumption.

Then, based on this, Poster 3 concluded that the allegedly off valve timing on WMSR 734 is "DESTROYING" the engine.

Am I missing something? How did we get to that leap, without first establishing that 1) the valve timing on WMSR #734 is indeed off, as opposed to just an observation by one person and that 2) said "offness" of valve timing on WMSR #734 can cause harm, or destruction to the valve gear and running gear of said steam locomotive? Also, we have not established 4) that 734 is not receiving proper maintenance.

Sounds to me like we've made quite a leap without filling out the "in between" to get from A to Z.
Author:  Bobharbison [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
David has a point... Does an engine being out of time "destroy" it?

As for the timing, you can tell a lot by sound alone. Here's a recent (5/27) video of the engine by Penn Rail Videos. Lots of runbys, but the 5:00 mark is a good place to hear her working hard and moving slowly enough that the chuffs are distinct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DFwqmXb6VM
Author:  Frisco1522 [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
David,
Read my post. I wasn't even specifically referring to the 734 and was stating a fact. I haven't read much about how this condition would affect the running gear, but if an engine is out of square, it's efficiency is reduced and it's fuel/water consumption will be more than that of a "square" engine.
Watch the posted video and listen to the engine working up into Frostburg station. It is clearly out of square. Ideally it would sound like 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4. Instead it is closer to 1--234 1--234.
Does that make more sense?
Author:  Donald Cormack [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Frisco is absolutely correct. The greatest effect poor valve event timing has on a locomotive is its fuel economy and it's overall efficiency especially when starting a train.

Please allow me to explain the reasoning behind my post before you guys tear me to shreds. The logic is simply this: if they (whomever maintains that locomotive) does not have the wherewithal to correct this condition or perhaps the desire, one can only wonder what ELSE are they not fixing/maintaining? In my 20+ years of maintaining/operating steam locomotives, I've never seen a locomotive go THAT far out of valve-timing in such a short period of time, without something significantly wrong with the valve gear. The 734 has Baker valve gear so this could be something to the effect of a severely worn bushing, a broken pin, a bent link, or a combination of all those to create severe lost-motion in the gear, which is what really fouls the timing. She's been like that for a few seasons now with no improvement, so it truly begs the question: Are they maintaining ANYTHING? I hope this puts some more backing to my statement that lack of PROPER maintenance can and will destroy a locomotive in short order.

I apologize for the negativity, but I've personally watched this engine slowly deteriorate mechanically over the last few years and, being one of my all time favorites, strikes a sour chord with me.

My .02 take it or leave it,
DC
Author:  p51 [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Bobharbison wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DFwqmXb6VM

Wow, you weren't kidding, she is really out of time!
Author:  TylerWV [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Donald Cormack wrote:
I apologize for the negativity, but I've personally watched this engine slowly deteriorate mechanically over the last few years and, being one of my all time favorites, strikes a sour chord with me.

My .02 take it or leave it,
DC


That is exactly why I posed this question. I am just an observer with only some 15" gauge steam experience back in college and most of my education being from the many qualified, experienced posters on these boards, but I too have noticed quite a change in this locomotive the past few years. I just posted to try to learn more about timing issues, effects, etc.

Along the lines of the discussion, I also noticed the engineer's side rods were quiet but there was pretty good clanking on the fireman's side, along with an extra "hiss" somewhere in the stroke, possibly a packing issue? Is it likely that the running gear issues would cause the timing problems or would that work the opposite way?

Also heard somewhere that the 1472 is up soon on the 734, but hopefully there are future plans for her.

Tyler
Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
All,

Unless something has changed in the past year (almost to the day actually) this is a deteriorating condition, considering the way it is now I would highly doubt anything has in fact changed. It stems from the left side baker gear, it has an amount of lost motion and play in the gear components which is beyond that which can put words to.
Last I saw the locomotive the gear connecting rod was striking the bell crank when in forward position/motion. To the point it had actually worn into the bell crank. In walking aside the locomotive one could observe the gear connecting rod in position where it should start moving the bell crank, JUMP forward striking the bell crank.... a delay (while still moving forward), then motion and an exhaust.
I was unaware baker gear could deteriorate to this condition and, in this condition, it is in fact doing damage to the VALVE gear but not the running gear so much. To an extent the case could be made that the uneven distribution of power and resulting lack of "balance" in the loadings may be causing irregular wear and stress loadings in certain components of the running gear....though I doubt actual damage compared to that seen in the valve gear due to components striking the other none of which should ever come into contact.
If one with an experienced ear listens to the exhaust in some of the recent vids it can be heard just how bad the valve rings are, there is a constant "tone" from the exhaust with only louder blasts of exhaust....even at low speeds. Simply put, steam is roaring by the valve rings directly into the exhaust.
Both conditions do lead to a lack of efficiency in fuel and water economy.

Cheers, Jason
Author:  ns2110 [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Yes it sounds bad but knowing that the locomotive is up for it's 1472 day inspection leads me to believe that it's most likely being band aided until it's out of flue time in which all of the problems can be rectified without wasting service days. Look at it through a manager's point of view. Sometimes it comes down to dollars and cents.
Author:  Emmo213 [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Then it's had a bandaid for the last couple of years. This isn't a new condition.
Author:  john creasing [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
ns2110 wrote:
Yes it sounds bad but knowing that the locomotive is up for it's 1472 day inspection leads me to believe that it's most likely being band aided until it's out of flue time in which all of the problems can be rectified without wasting service days. Look at it through a manager's point of view. Sometimes it comes down to dollars and cents.


You're saying that managements perspective is to allow a damaging condition to develop and progressively worsen over the course of several years? Increasing repair cost and risking a failure rather than fix the issue all at once or progressively over the course of the many months the locomotive the locomotive does not operate during the winter?

From a cost perspective, it sounds like they would need to be replacing management if that were the case.

John
Author:  jasonsobczynski [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
Railroads determined very early on that it pays to maintain locomotives to rather tight tolerances and in overall good condition. This rather than allow them to wear out until they have reached what we now know as FRA condemning limits. I have multiple condemning limit tables from railroad mechanical departments as a basis for this statement.
One can easily logic out the fact that if you replace a bushing.....a consumable..... at the point it reaches between 75-100% over it's original clearance it is cheaper to operate and maintain a locomotive rather than waiting until it grossly effects performance or becomes condemnable. Why? Simple, pins throughout the locomotive then do not have to be replaced or (in the case of crank pins) quartered.
In the long run it just simply costs more to run a locomotive until it is completely worn out versus keeping it close to perfect.

What i don't understand about the WMSR is that it appears their passenger equipment is kept near to perfect yet the steam locomotive suffers.

Cheers, Jason
Author:  Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: WMSR 734 & Timing
I've heard worse.

On a recording of a (British) National Coal Board 0-6-0ST in the early 1970s, that was so far out of whack that it literally sounded like some new breed of locomotive, with FIVE chuffs per driver rotation, one silent:

"CHUFF-CHUF-chuff-chuff-[missed beat]-Chuff-CHUFF-chuff-chuff-[missed beat]-CHUFF-CHUFF-chuff-chuff-[missed beat]-CHUFF-chuff-chuff-chuff-[missed beat]......"

I believe this is the loco in question, shown still in service: http://www.flickr.com/photos/8755708@N07/6806035860

Hearing three-cylinder steam is jarring enough to those who have never heard it ("I-THINK-I-can-do-it" versus "I-THINK-I-can"). I've seen steam guys' eyes bug out when I played this recording.

But, sadly, 734 sounds like it's trying to replace that steamer for "offbeat" operation.
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