So many sites, so little time - and here's one that's always worth a look.

Ozark Mountain - used railroad equipment:

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/cat ... ocomotives


Apparently you can now get used Chinese steam from Ozark - 2-8-2's (Cheap) and
even narrow gauge engines. Ugh - it IS nice to have representative examples here
in the US but 'nough is 'nough, eh?

/Mitch

This could stall preservation in alot of ways.

If, as a business person, I could have something new for one price or something old for twice as much, and the public doesn't know the difference either way, why shouldn't somebody get new steam from China?

We would not be listing these items if we did not have a demand! We get Buyers in the US and South America contacting us on a regular basis looking for narrow gauge, etc equipment that does not have to be rebuilt.

John Suscheck/CEO
Ozark Mountain Railcar

Is this the diner from the Cape Charles, VA operation?

http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/det ... 16-REDUCED

Wesley

"Chinese steam" has been "available" for commercial purchase for well over two decades in North America. For a variety of reasons, only a scant few have actually been sold. Those reasons include, but are not limited to: 1) the fact that very few steam excursions operate on a strictly commercial basis where the cost-benefit ratio of "new steam" is justified, and 2) the American public apparently can, and does, pay attention to, and prefers, details of authenticity over masquerade, the daily "gunfight" at the Grand Canyon RR's Williams, AZ station and the occasional "train robberies" there and other lines notwithstanding.

It's taken decades for one line to undertake a (very commendable) rebuilding job using a Chinese loco as a basis for a "replication" of an American engine. I'd love to see more such rebuilds, preferably with one of the 2-10-2's, but I fear it's not to be.

Affirmative. Diner, doodlebug, whatever:

http://www.baycreekrailway.com/diningcar.html

http://mserfass.smugmug.com/Trains-5/Ba ... 60&k=wiPXZ

It appears the diner doodlebug is still in operation as of this typing; the website shows a schedule of lunch and dinner operations in 2012.

Because the choice isn't old steam for preservation or new steam for not preservation - it's old steam for not preservation or new steam for not preservation. Either you are in the preservation business or not......thoose that are won't buy new steam, except for the purpose of having a useable bit of hardware to use and alter with impunity to keep the unused preserved stuff pristine. So, in those cases, it is likely to promote preservation, no?

dave

I guess I looked at it differently. This seems familiar to the "historical fabric" thing I always associate with Linn Moedinger. Is preservation simply keep the old stuff from rusting away? Is what TVRM is doing with 4501 considered preservation? Is The Valley actually doing the opposite of preservation by changing a locomotive from its original form? Is what The Valley did different from the group with ATSF 3463?

Not trying to cause problems, just throwing questions out for the sake of conversation.

It's an age-old dilemma that has been rehashed repeatedly.

You can preserve the artifacts, or you can preserve the experience.

In the case of museums, it's the difference between George Washington's artifacts preserved in glass cases at the Washington Memorial in Alexandria, versus walking the grounds at Mount Vernon, wearing out the floorboards in the process.

In the case of rail preservation, it's the difference between seeing PRR 1223, SR 1401, SP 4294, et al stuffed and mounted permanently in museums, or seeing SR 4501, N&W 1218, and UP 844 out on the railroads enthralling passengers with the sights, sounds, smells, and spirit of railroading in an era gone by, or places like Durango & Silverton, Grand Canyon, and Strasburg showcase such railroading.

"Living history" is essentially by definition a fraud, but it has a critical role in history--making it relevant and meaningful to those who didn't experience it.

I think the experience is preserved as well by a new replica, if not better - case in point LEVITHIAN. She makes the same noises, smells, and acts and looks like a 1865 4-4-0, but with incredibly greater robustness and reliability, which doesn't impact the visitors experience one bit. I'd be very skeptical of a plan to start running GENERAL or TEXAS in frequent demonstration service.......or daily like JUPITER and 119.

dave

That's the prevailing theory, yes. However I disagree. I say it's not a fraud if you are doing it the way they did it.

I say there is a rather important difference between:
- Make a K-brake gasket out of leather, punching it by hand from an old pattern.
- Cut the gasket on a CNC waterknife.
- Tear the K off it and replace with ABDX.

If you say "none of it is the same as being there in 1890" ... well, duh. But since we cannot have that, should we do nothing? Don't make "perfect" the enemy of the "good".

Precisely - who's to say that's not how they'd be doing it today if they were still doing it today? Do you think UP and Strasburg are still doing EVERYTHING like they had done it 60 years ago?

As for Ozark's Chinese offerings - sure, they make sense, and cents. And it is nice to have steam available at a viable price for those who seek it. I'll bet most families don't know the difference between Chinese steam and American. And that, my friends, is why I'm not a fan of bringing in anything more then what already is here!

/Mitch

If you are talking about "new" Chinese steam, you are kidding yourself. If you use the term "relatively new", then you are making sense. The Chinese are doing to their steam locos just what we did at the end of steam. They are running them into the ground. Used locomotives may be more like "used up" locomotives. Economically, these Chinese engines may look good on the surface, but each and every one must pass the FRA 1472 day inspection BEFORE they can go into service. Add $300-400K to the cost for the 1472, plus shipping and other modification (like right hand drive) and repairing a park engine starts looking better and better.

After seeing engines like New Haven #3025, Susquehanna #142, and Iowa Interstate #6988, I have no problems with Chinese steam in this country. Sure, they don't look EXACTLY like American engines, but if it comes down to a Chinese locomotive that needs a 1472 day inspection and an American locomotive that needs a new firebox, new tender cistern AND a 1472 day inspection, I'd use the Chinese. The experience is ultimately what matters to me when it comes to rides. Keep the pieces that are important to our history safe. Work the hell out of the ones that aren't.

There is room for both. My goodness if you have a donor who will purchace a rebuilt Chinese engine are you going to say "no" to him/her? If you have a donor who is willing to pay twice as much to rebuild a US locomotive are you going to say "No"? No opinion is wrong, were all intitled to have one, at least until the next executive order decree's it illegal. Seriously if you want to run steam in this day and age it is going to cost more money than most of us can afford, and most US built engines are not going to be very original after becoming compliant with todays regulations. So jump for joy when either is running!

If I won the lottery I would buy and rebuild a number of my favorite locomotives and I might just buy a SY and have the folks out east trick it out for me. Kind of one dementionial foaming to say "right or wrong" or "forever never". I am elated to know that the locomotives that are running out there are running and some more are on the way, many with places to run. I'll take steam anyway I can get it. Cheers, John.