Railway Preservation News :: View topic - N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?

Transportation Museum Executive Director Bev Fitzpatrick says it could happen again. "The Norfolk Southern has said they will allow it to run on their rails," Fitzpatrick said in an interview. "What we need is someone who would be able to get it fixed and then pay for it to operate."

NS leased 611 from the Va. Museum of Transportation (in fact, wasn't it actually the Roanoke Transportation Museum when the lease was executed?).

NS has not, so far as anyone knows yet, proposed a similar course of action this time around. (Yet.) Absent such an arrangement, restoration of 611 to operation in 2012 or 2013 is probably not an economically feasible proposition.

Like it or not, for the average person on steam locomotive is pretty much the same as another. Sure, they can probably recognize Thomas, and some folks know the Daylight, but beyond that, if it belches smoke and has a pretty whistle, then it's a steam train. (Even if it's a diesel with a Hancock air whistle... but that's a different story.)

It's a unique situation where you have a locomotive built there as the centerpiece of a museum, and where the railroad itself was originally headquartered. I'm guessing that the local pride runs deep, and any serious effort to raise the funds necessary for operation might just succeed. Running one weekend a month over Blue Ridge Summit during the Summer (even into Fall foliage season) would not seem like an impossible dream - and a potentially major tourist draw for the area. Theoretically, a steam locomotive could be operated almost 100 days/year and remain within the 1472 operating day limit for a 15 year cycle. So, they could get a lot of years/trips of use for the expense of the overhaul as a not-for-profit operation. Running reasonable speeds with a moderate train would make that entirely possible.

I would love to see one of them 4-8-0's back in action.

Author:	railfan261 [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
If they ever get a group together, I'd send in a donation toot sweet.

Author:	Bobharbison [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
I read the article, and to me it reads pretty much as "When folks saw 630 run, they commented it would be cool to see 611 run again" "The museum says it's possible, if they can find somebody to fund it" "Railfans said that would be great". I don't see any "Pie in the sky" proposals that everyone donate a buck or that NS pay for it or any of the other nonsense typical of this stuff. This quote seems quite realistic: Quote: Transportation Museum Executive Director Bev Fitzpatrick says it could happen again. "The Norfolk Southern has said they will allow it to run on their rails," Fitzpatrick said in an interview. "What we need is someone who would be able to get it fixed and then pay for it to operate." Not much controversy there in my opinion...

Author:	Alexander D. Mitchell IV [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
A gentle reminder to those too young to remember the first round between 1983 and 1994: NS leased 611 from the Va. Museum of Transportation (in fact, wasn't it actually the Roanoke Transportation Museum when the lease was executed?). NS was on the hook for the costs of restoration to operation, subsequent maintenance, etc. NS has not, so far as anyone knows yet, proposed a similar course of action this time around. (Yet.) Absent such an arrangement, restoration of 611 to operation in 2012 or 2013 is probably not an economically feasible proposition. Don't let us stop you from winning the lottery and offering a donation of enough money to fix her up, however......

Author:	gcrr [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
Quote: NS leased 611 from the Va. Museum of Transportation (in fact, wasn't it actually the Roanoke Transportation Museum when the lease was executed?). Actually, it was leased from the City of Roanoke. Just this past spring, the City of Roanoke transferred ownership to VMT.

Author:	Bobharbison [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
Quote: NS has not, so far as anyone knows yet, proposed a similar course of action this time around. (Yet.) Absent such an arrangement, restoration of 611 to operation in 2012 or 2013 is probably not an economically feasible proposition. There's also no real reason that they should. They were able to secure use of another steam locomotive at what is presumably a much smaller cost. So why bother with 611? Yes, I know, streamlined superpower, queen of the rails, totally cool... I get that. But NS doesn't need to impress railfans. They've been there and done that last week (have they pumped all the foam and drool out of the turntable pit yet?). Like it or not, for the average person on steam locomotive is pretty much the same as another. Sure, they can probably recognize Thomas, and some folks know the Daylight, but beyond that, if it belches smoke and has a pretty whistle, then it's a steam train. (Even if it's a diesel with a Hancock air whistle... but that's a different story.)

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Author:	PaulWWoodring [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
Bobharbison wrote: Like it or not, for the average person on steam locomotive is pretty much the same as another. Sure, they can probably recognize Thomas, and some folks know the Daylight, but beyond that, if it belches smoke and has a pretty whistle, then it's a steam train. (Even if it's a diesel with a Hancock air whistle... but that's a different story.) Just from knowing the general level of ignorance in the media regarding anything railroad, the fact that the news folks in the video clip talk about 611 like most people in the area are familiar with it, leads me to believe that perhaps the average citizen of the Roanoke area would know the difference between 611 and Thomas, or Flag Coal #75, etc. It's a unique situation where you have a locomotive built there as the centerpiece of a museum, and where the railroad itself was originally headquartered. I'm guessing that the local pride runs deep, and any serious effort to raise the funds necessary for operation might just succeed. Running one weekend a month over Blue Ridge Summit during the Summer (even into Fall foliage season) would not seem like an impossible dream - and a potentially major tourist draw for the area. Theoretically, a steam locomotive could be operated almost 100 days/year and remain within the 1472 operating day limit for a 15 year cycle. So, they could get a lot of years/trips of use for the expense of the overhaul as a not-for-profit operation. Running reasonable speeds with a moderate train would make that entirely possible.

Author:	Gary Gray [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
Basically, the TV station said the same thing that we have been saying for the past year when asked about 611. Yes, it can run again just as soon as someone's willing to pay for it. Personally, even if I had the money to pay for it, I wouldn't spend it without at least a 10 year operating contract with NS. I lived through spending a bunch of money upgrading coaches in 1991-92 and watching the program die 2 years later.

Author:	Bobharbison [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
PaulWWoodring wrote: It's a unique situation where you have a locomotive built there as the centerpiece of a museum, and where the railroad itself was originally headquartered. I'm guessing that the local pride runs deep, and any serious effort to raise the funds necessary for operation might just succeed. Running one weekend a month over Blue Ridge Summit during the Summer (even into Fall foliage season) would not seem like an impossible dream - and a potentially major tourist draw for the area. Theoretically, a steam locomotive could be operated almost 100 days/year and remain within the 1472 operating day limit for a 15 year cycle. So, they could get a lot of years/trips of use for the expense of the overhaul as a not-for-profit operation. Running reasonable speeds with a moderate train would make that entirely possible. My comments were based from the NS point of view, and related to why I don't see them handing over a check for $1 million (or whatever) to restore her to steam. Yes, it's possible, especially if they considered it to be a philanthropic gesture. But if it's based on the NS saying "we need a steam loco for our employee train" I don't see it as likely. From the museum's point of view? It's a total no brainer! I'm certain they would love to do it, for all the reasons you suggest. The only questions are 1) Where do we get the money? 2) Where do we run it? and 3) Where do we find coaches?

Author:	eldiner [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
I was at a presentation that Wick Moorman gave a month or so ago and he opened up the Q&A session by asking his own first question - "Will 1218 or 611 ever run again?" His comments were interested and paraphrased by me: He said that NS would find a way to operate steam on its lines in some way if these locomotives were of NS predecessor heritage. He mentioned their use of NKP 765 for employee specials in addition to 630. He also said that NS had no intention of ever owning or restoring a steam locomotive ever again, but that if a credible group has restored a locomotive to operation in a way that was suitable to operate on NS they would find a way to do so on a scale similar to what they are doing now (i.e. don't expect it to be the 1970's ever again).

Author:	dinwitty [ Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
You probably have to establish a group like "Friends of 611" and even "Friends of 1218" ..hint hint.. perhaps to get it done, VMT will probably be much friendlier than 261's case, but 261 is in good hands now. Nothing's impossible, but you know, I would love to see one of them 4-8-0's back in action. You will need a solid core of seasoned steam veterans to get it done, perhaps many involved in its original trips can chime in. But in any event you will be looking 4 years down the road unless the restoration can take on daily work.

Author:	Gary Gray [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
I have no doubt that if we went "balls to the wall" on a fundraising campaign strictly for that purpose, we could have 611 running in short order. However, in the big picture that would probably not be of benefit in the long term for many reasons. Operating 611 is possible under current NS management, but what about when Wick retires? It would be totally up to his successor. For many years Roanoke was the "poster child" for what not to do in railway preservation. Politics, multiple orgnizations, arrogant and clueless Boards, fragmented interests, etc. We have made huge strides in the past 6 years on changing that due to the efforts of a number of forward thinking people who understand the value of teamwork. In the past 4 years we have been following the recommendations of a professional study on the problems here. VMT is rationalizing & restoring it's collection, and both it and Roanoke Chapter NRHS are focusing strongly on a joint regional collection. We have made the first steps towards establishing regular rides and we are working towards expanding them. VMT is developing a Master Plan for museum improvements including more cover for displays and improved interpretation. Everyone is on board for the goal of establishing a first class restoration shop so that equipment can be properly restored and maintained, and productivity greatly increased. Thanks to teamwork, good marketing and good special events, the "rail heritage" tourism numbers are now the best demographically of all of the local attractions. This has attracted the attention of area Foundations, and grant moneys that were formerly given only to "the Arts" are now begining to come to the organizations that are showing results in economic impact. Running 611 has a place in this, and the cost factors are well known at this point. However, if the choice had to be made between running 611, establishing a shop facility that could support her, or expanding and making permanent regular excursion operations, the best long term choices would be made. If anyone out there can find us a donor who is willing to write a $10 million dollar cheque, we'll get started on all of the above.

Author:	jasonsobczynski [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:35 am ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
While the J would be cheaper, and much less than people think, the A would be more practical. Lower axle loadings, tighter(somewhat) curvatures negotiable.... It can go many places the J can't. The J is my fav, don't misunderstand, just practicality speaking. Cheers, Jason

Author:	Dave Stephenson [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
611 and 1218 have the same driver axle loading - 72,000 lbs.

Author:	Mouse [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
I"ll add my two cents here. You [i]can[i] read between the lines here if you look hard enough. NS transferred any ownership rights to the VMT. Now, who's engine and equipment are they using now? Who is doing the overhaul and maintenance of the 630 and 4501? It's [i]not[i] NS itself. By having someone else own the equipment and do the work, it reduces you costs and liability. Basically, you can run steam trips, get all the glory, and at the end of the day, put all the "toys" away for someone else to take care of and fix until needed again. Remember it takes a number of people to fix and run steam locomotives. That's quite a bit in Labor costs. If the equipment belongs to someone else, the only cost to NS is the day's operations. It becomes a "win-win" situation for everyone!

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Author:	ns2110 [ Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: N&W 611, Where Do We Send The Checks?
Quote: I would love to see one of them 4-8-0's back in action. That makes me wonder if NS has ever thought of using the 475 at Strasburg. It's already restored, has many thousands of miles under it's belt so the true condition of the locomotive is known. The only down side would be that Strasburg would be down a locomotive.