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What's it called?
https://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33793		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RichardWilliam [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  What's it called?
To help our local museum, I need to know the proper term for that pole device on which a station agent or employee would affix a written message/order and hold up trackside for someone on a passing train to grab as the train came by. Thanks for your help.
Author:  James Fouchard [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
RichardWilliam wrote:
To help our local museum, I need to know the proper term for that pole device on which a station agent or employee would affix a written message/order and hold up trackside for someone on a passing train to grab as the train came by. Thanks for your help.


I believe it , if hand-held by the agent, is called an order hoop.
Author:  Gary Gray [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Could also be an order fork. Depends on what it looks like
Author:  John E. McNamara [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
I've always heard the process of delivering orders in this fashion called "hooping up the orders" rather than "forking up the orders," so I would stick with calling the device a hoop, even if some resemble forks and some resemble hoops.

-John
Author:  Richard W. [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Order Hoop or Order Fork depending on what you have.

Richard Wilkens
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
The original device was a length of ash or hickey bent into a figure nine, the engineman put his arm through the loop of the hoop to catch the orders. This led to the action being called "hooping" up orders.

The disadvantage is that the engineman had to untie the orders then throw the hoop off; the operator had to walk the track until he found that hoop, and the one used to deliver the orders to the caboose.

The improved version was a Y shaped affair, with spring clips for a string at the tips and junction of the Y. The orders were tied to a loop of string that was clipped to the fork; the operator kept the fork while the engine crew kept the string. The verb for the action, however, had been set as "hooping" up orders, and didn't change.

The later improvement was to mount the forks to a permanent stand, similar to a mail crane; two forks, one above the other, the top one for the engine crew, the bottom for the caboose. Equipped with a light, easy to see, the operator could hang the orders well in advance of the train, and not spend his time stumbling around in the weeds looking for the hoop.
Author:  Les Beckman [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Dennis -

Great explanation. You nailed it! We have one of the train order stands at HVRM (not installed). Not sure exactly how it should be postitioned. I saw one at another museum one time and I don't think they had the thing set up the right way. Anyone have the info on the correct way to hang the orders?

Les
Author:  Tower Operator [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
The above explanation is correct. When I was Tower Operator for the MP in East Dallas, TX back in the 1980's, we used what we called a "speed rack" which held 2 or 3 (if needed) spring loaded fork arrangements; one for the head-end crew, and another for the caboose crew. If the speed rack was not serviceable for whatever reason, we "hooped" them up on a hand held fork. It could be quite unnerving to stand close to the track with a train bearing down on you at 40+ MPH and only a few inches away from you, and hold that fork still so the engineer wouldn't miss it. If he did, and it was your fault, you could expect the train to stop, the head-end crew to walk back, and you would learn all sorts of new cuss words from the experience!
Author:  Tower Operator [ Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Orders were tied into a string to be hooped up with a double slip-knot arrangement; the string would be tied and several hung up on a nail in the Tower to be used when needed. When you needed to hang orders, you would roll them up, with their clearance form, and insert them into the string between the slip knots and pull the knots taught. Then you could load the hoop.
Author:  R Paul Carey [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
In the early 1980's - until about 1985 - we were still handling train orders on CR, where for a few years I had the opportunity as Division Superintendent to observe the process of their issuance (Dispatcher to Operator) and delivery (Operator to train, or properly, "C&E").

The rarely used term for the "fork" (or the "hoop" in earlier days) was "train order transmitter".

In the Winter of 1984-85 I spent a few cold nights at Ridgeway tower, a windswept location where our North-South Toledo Branch intersected the East-West Indianapolis Line. Orders for two divisions were commonly delivered to trains at that location and at times the operator could be understandably "swamped". The tower had no indoor plumbing (another story there) and orders were delivered by hand. Freight and intermodal train speed on the Indianapolis Line was 50 MPH, and our "Big Four" crews were anything but "slackers"!

One night, as the Operator was in the middle of taking orders from the Dispatcher, I took the orders to deliver a westbound freight train, which was already "on the bell".

Standing on a platform about three feet square, I watched the headlight grow from a speck on the East horizon to a blaze of light as broad and bright as the sun. The ground shook, a faint tremor at first, then "waves" as the engine drew close.

With fork outstretched, blinded by the headlight, my thoughts were: Don't screw this up.
DONT SCREW THIS UP! DONT SCREW THIS UP !!!

The tug on my fork was reassuring, to say the least! We still had a very few trains operating with cabooses at the time - but this wasn't one of them, so I was glad to step back off the platform and observe the train from a safer distance. The "old timers" had to stay in place with a second set for delivery to the caboose - and they endured the hazards of dragging bands, shifted loads, and many other perils over the years.

The next day, back at HQ in Columbus, and discussing the experience with our Manager of Operating Rules (Jim VanCleve), it was suggested that we set up an "iron man" arrangement at these points, so the Operators could place the orders for the next train, then safely observe the passing trains from the tower.

Those "iron men" served us well for another two years or so.
Author:  Dennis Storzek [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Les Beckman wrote:
Dennis -

Great explanation. You nailed it! We have one of the train order stands at HVRM (not installed). Not sure exactly how it should be postitioned. I saw one at another museum one time and I don't think they had the thing set up the right way. Anyone have the info on the correct way to hang the orders?

Les


The "other museum" may have had it set back too far from the track, because everyone is afraid to have anything close to the track these days. The train order stand, however, has to be close enough to the track for the crews to reach the orders, or it isn't any good.

I should think that one of the railroad historical societies that has a good collection of Way and Structures drawings should have placement drawings. I'll look in the 1941 Railway Engineering and Maintenance Cyclopedia and see if they have drawings of a typical installation.
Author:  railfan44 [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Handing up train orders to a passenger train flying by at 60 or more mph is no fun. You know where the engineer is but have no idea out of which dutch door the conductor's arm will be. And I never had to do it in bad weather or on snow and ice.
Author:  RichardWilliam [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Many thanks to you all for your help and those interesting stories. I sure appreciate it all.
Author:  W.L.Avis [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
railfan44 wrote:
Handing up train orders to a passenger train flying by at 60 or more mph is no fun. You know where the engineer is but have no idea out of which dutch door the conductor's arm will be. And I never had to do it in bad weather or on snow and ice.

More funner yet, hanging on orders to a RDC at night at 60 per. You have nothing to line up on with the Engineman sitting so far forward. Plus is you only have to use one hoop as all orders and clarenace forms for Engineman and Conductor all go on at one time.
Author:  G. W. Laepple [ Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's it called?
Just imagine what it was like to hoop orders up to a doubleheaded steam hauled freight in the middle of the night! That headlight blinding you, the ground trembling as the engine bears down, all that iron flailing very close to your body parts as you held the hoop up for the first one, then quickly got the second one into position. Then, as the train roared by, you had to get your third hoop ready for the conductor, and what if there was a rear-end pusher? Oh, my word!
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